Been a Long 3 Months

[Mike Belt]

For the first time in 43 years I didn't deer hunt nor even try to this season. I figured I was through with it. Turns out I may have a place to hunt not over 10 minutes from my front door next season (which will be a major change considering I've always had a 1-3 hour one way drive to hunt). A friend of mine got me into duck hunting for a couple of years and the guy that owns the land was in the same club. In fact I went to a party at his house one time. We weren't big buddies and he probably won't know who I am until I tell him. Anyway, the son grew up with him and they're friends and he mentioned last week I didn't have a place to deer hunt and he said tell him to come on. He has 1200 acres and he's the only one that has hunted it for the past 20 years. He allows no one else on it. He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place. He says he sees handfuls of deer every trip out. Another great thing is he's a 50% deer hunter and a 110% duck hunter. He doesn't give a flip about deer when duck season's open so I'd have it all to myself. He's had some pics of pretty good bucks and killed one in the 140s this past season. Keeping my fingers crossed...

 

[MUP]

Dang Mike, talk about one door closing and another opening! Hope it works out for you!

 

[Lost Lake]

Sounds like heaven. Hope it works out for you!

 

[cbhunter]

That's awesome man. Glad you are going to get back in the game

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Hope it works out and you enjoy getting back into it, Mike!

 

[DoubleRidge]

Mike.....that sounds like a dream opportunity!! Congrats!!

Don't want to hijack the thread....but am curious and want to understand better the following comment:

He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place.

I have a friend who manages a large property with limited buck harvest and had a biologist tell him about the same thing....50 to 75 doe annually.

My question is: for a property that's not deer hunted much....with only one buck being taken and with the natural birth rate of male to female fawn's. How or why would the biologist say 55 does annually....with little hunting pressure the buck to doe ratio can't be that out of balance? Can it?

Or is it the biologist looking at carrying capacity of the land and wants to reduce population growth? If that's the case ... what about the male to female ratio? Taking that many does would be out of the natural balance wouldn't it?

I'm asking because I've been around folks before that say they have 8 does to 1 buck on their farm.....and I'm not sure with minimal hunting this is possible biologically? (I'm not talking antlered buck to doe....I'm talking male to female ratio)

Sorry to have so many questions....this is just interesting to me....from a herd management standpoint.....thanks.

 

[megalomaniac]

... He has 1200 acres and he's the only one that has hunted it for the past 20 years. He allows no one else on it. He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place...

I hope you get to hunt it!

But this 'advice' from a 'biologist' is so funny... and yet so common. Seems anytime a 'biologist' is asked how to manage a property, they recommend the same thing every time for every single property... 1 doe for every 40 acres. No matter how much food, deer density, sex ratios, etc. It's the same, 1 doe per 40 acres. (or even worse in this case, 1 doe per 22 acres).

I assure you, if you kill 55 does off this property, your hunting will worsen the next year. Do it for 2 or 3 years in a row, and hunting will severely suffer.

I have a couple of friends here in MS whom I have been fortunate to hunt on their properties. Managed on the DMAP program, they followed the recommendations of the biologists and slaughtered does by the dozens according to their recommendations. Body weights did not improve (already excellent habitat), fawn recruitment rates did not improve, antler scores did not improve. The only thing that happened was they went from killing 7 or 8 trophy deer per year (130" in better) per property down to 3 or 4 trophy deer per year. There just weren't enough buck fawns born after the wholesale doe slaughter to recruit enough older bucks.

They have since gone back to a moderate doe harvest (1 per 100 ac), and the quality of hunting and number of shooter bucks has drastically improved.

 

[TheLBLman]

I'm sure Mike can answer all your questions in great detail, and I'm not meaning to hijack anything here.
Also, what our maniac brother in Mississippi is saying needs to be considered as well.

I'm asking because I've been around folks before that say they have 8 does to 1 buck on their farm.....and I'm not sure with minimal hunting this is possible biologically? (I'm not talking antlered buck to doe....I'm talking male to female ratio)

Sorry to have so many questions....this is just interesting to me....from a herd management standpoint.....thanks.

What many hunters fail to appreciate is that even with 1200 acres, typically, most of the deer utilizing that 1200 acres may actually spend more time on the adjoining 2400 acres. And, even if no bucks are killed annually on that 1200 acres, a majority of them could still get killed on the adjoining properties.

The rut range of bucks can be SEVERAL THOUSAND ACRES, and bucks tend to get killed on surrounding properties at a much, much higher rate than the more homebody female deer.

As hunter-managers, we are often more limited than we think by what's happening on the surrounding property, especially when we're attempting to manage say less than 5,000 acres.

I know some astute hunter managers may disagree, but they can have an unrealistic disagreement if most the property bordering theirs is actually hunted less. MOST of us will be surrounded by properties hunted more than ours, and with hunters with lower shooter buck standards.
As BSK will say, each situation is site specific and unique.

 

[muddyboots]

That will get your back going. Congrats. My time dwindled this year. I lost my good lease. My other lease was not good at all. I had one little 20 acre parcel I was seeing deer out of and now backwater seems to have messed with it. Congrats on the find.

 

[Spurhunter]

I lost my good lease.

Sorry to hear that. Was this the place with all the pines you've hunted for years?


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[DoubleRidge]

Appology again for hijacking the thread.

LBLman....agree that bucks without a doubt die at a higher rate of various causes verses homebody mama does....good point. And also neighboring management practices certainly can and does impact bucks numbers.
I've just never have personally felt the need or even seen the need to kill 1 doe per 40 acre (or 1 per 22)....if that were actually on the money accurate the the bucks must have been absolutely hammered on surrounding properties.....and this senario may exist....I've just never seen it? Hope I never do.

Megalomaniac....I agree if you kill 55 does off this property, the hunting will worsen the next year. Do it for 2 or 3 years in a row, and hunting would certainly be worse. Zero doubt.

Mike....my appology again for getting side tracked.....hope you get to hunt the place....sounds like an amazing opportunity!!

 

[Snake]

... He has 1200 acres and he's the only one that has hunted it for the past 20 years. He allows no one else on it. He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place...

I hope you get to hunt it!

But this 'advice' from a 'biologist' is so funny... and yet so common. Seems anytime a 'biologist' is asked how to manage a property, they recommend the same thing every time for every single property... 1 doe for every 40 acres. No matter how much food, deer density, sex ratios, etc. It's the same, 1 doe per 40 acres. (or even worse in this case, 1 doe per 22 acres).

I assure you, if you kill 55 does off this property, your hunting will worsen the next year. Do it for 2 or 3 years in a row, and hunting will severely suffer.

I have a couple of friends here in MS whom I have been fortunate to hunt on their properties. Managed on the DMAP program, they followed the recommendations of the biologists and slaughtered does by the dozens according to their recommendations. Body weights did not improve (already excellent habitat), fawn recruitment rates did not improve, antler scores did not improve. The only thing that happened was they went from killing 7 or 8 trophy deer per year (130" in better) per property down to 3 or 4 trophy deer per year. There just weren't enough buck fawns born after the wholesale doe slaughter to recruit enough older bucks.

They have since gone back to a moderate doe harvest (1 per 100 ac), and the quality of hunting and number of shooter bucks has drastically improved.

I tend to agree especially if there are ample food sources . Mike sorry about not responding to the OP but sure hope you get to hunt this place . I've lost two really good leases three years ago but like you I was kinda tired of the drive so I know how you feel .

 

[redblood]

Sounds like a great opportunity. I would however fire the biologist

 

[cbhunter]

FYI, I have really missed your detailed hunting posts this year Mike. I always enjoyed your posts and persistence

 

[Headhunter]

... He has 1200 acres and he's the only one that has hunted it for the past 20 years. He allows no one else on it. He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place...

I hope you get to hunt it!

But this 'advice' from a 'biologist' is so funny... and yet so common. Seems anytime a 'biologist' is asked how to manage a property, they recommend the same thing every time for every single property... 1 doe for every 40 acres. No matter how much food, deer density, sex ratios, etc. It's the same, 1 doe per 40 acres. (or even worse in this case, 1 doe per 22 acres).

I assure you, if you kill 55 does off this property, your hunting will worsen the next year. Do it for 2 or 3 years in a row, and hunting will severely suffer.

I have a couple of friends here in MS whom I have been fortunate to hunt on their properties. Managed on the DMAP program, they followed the recommendations of the biologists and slaughtered does by the dozens according to their recommendations. Body weights did not improve (already excellent habitat), fawn recruitment rates did not improve, antler scores did not improve. The only thing that happened was they went from killing 7 or 8 trophy deer per year (130" in better) per property down to 3 or 4 trophy deer per year. There just weren't enough buck fawns born after the wholesale doe slaughter to recruit enough older bucks.

They have since gone back to a moderate doe harvest (1 per 100 ac), and the quality of hunting and number of shooter bucks has drastically improved.

I disagree. So long it is accurate that does need to be killed to get the ratio closer to a 1 doe to 1 buck, the hunting will only get better and better, especially for the bucks. I have been involved in thinning of does on several places and it has nothing but made the hunting better every single time. And a PILE of does not need to be killed every season. But thinning the doe population when needed (ONLY shoot mature does) is one of the best things to do.

 

[DoubleRidge]

... He has 1200 acres and he's the only one that has hunted it for the past 20 years. He allows no one else on it. He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place...

I hope you get to hunt it!

But this 'advice' from a 'biologist' is so funny... and yet so common. Seems anytime a 'biologist' is asked how to manage a property, they recommend the same thing every time for every single property... 1 doe for every 40 acres. No matter how much food, deer density, sex ratios, etc. It's the same, 1 doe per 40 acres. (or even worse in this case, 1 doe per 22 acres).

I assure you, if you kill 55 does off this property, your hunting will worsen the next year. Do it for 2 or 3 years in a row, and hunting will severely suffer.

I have a couple of friends here in MS whom I have been fortunate to hunt on their properties. Managed on the DMAP program, they followed the recommendations of the biologists and slaughtered does by the dozens according to their recommendations. Body weights did not improve (already excellent habitat), fawn recruitment rates did not improve, antler scores did not improve. The only thing that happened was they went from killing 7 or 8 trophy deer per year (130" in better) per property down to 3 or 4 trophy deer per year. There just weren't enough buck fawns born after the wholesale doe slaughter to recruit enough older bucks.

They have since gone back to a moderate doe harvest (1 per 100 ac), and the quality of hunting and number of shooter bucks has drastically improved.

I disagree. So long it is accurate that does need to be killed to get the ratio closer to a 1 doe to 1 buck, the hunting will only get better and better, especially for the bucks. I have been involved in thinning of does on several places and it has nothing but made the hunting better every single time. And a PILE of does not need to be killed every season. But thinning the doe population when needed (ONLY shoot mature does) is one of the best things to do.

Totally agree a ratio of 1 buck to 1 doe is the ideal goal....but killing 1 doe per 22 acres is a PILE of does....and I don't question your experience!....but your talking about thinning a few mature does...makes sense with hunters taking bucks and bucks having a higher natural mortality rate.....it's just the 1 doe per 22 acres that I can't wrap my mind around........but like you said thinning does can be good "when needed" .....I've just never personally seen an area that called for this drastic of a kill rate.

 

[Headhunter]

Doubleridge, several years ago, I hunted one farm that was 180 acres, guys around us wouldn't kill does, and we started shooting every single momma doe we saw, nothing else. First year we killed 28, next year we killed 30 We went from not seeing any mature bucks and very few bucks at all, to not only seeing a bunch of bucks but killing 3 to 5 mature bucks a season. Only killed a 10 to 15 does a season for a couple years after that and then the farm sold and turned into a subdivision. 50 does on 1200 acres sounds like a drop in the bucket.

2 things I think mattered the most is we ONLY shot momma does when shooting does and there were no cull bucks. Well many would have called them culls, but we wanted competition, the buck to doe ratio, so we did not "cull" any bucks.

 

[hooks]

For the first time in 43 years I didn't deer hunt nor even try to this season. I figured I was through with it. Turns out I may have a place to hunt not over 10 minutes from my front door next season (which will be a major change considering I've always had a 1-3 hour one way drive to hunt). A friend of mine got me into duck hunting for a couple of years and the guy that owns the land was in the same club. In fact I went to a party at his house one time. We weren't big buddies and he probably won't know who I am until I tell him. Anyway, the son grew up with him and they're friends and he mentioned last week I didn't have a place to deer hunt and he said tell him to come on. He has 1200 acres and he's the only one that has hunted it for the past 20 years. He allows no one else on it. He had a biologist look it over a couple of years ago and was told he needed to take at least 55 does a season off the place. He says he sees handfuls of deer every trip out. Another great thing is he's a 50% deer hunter and a 110% duck hunter. He doesn't give a flip about deer when duck season's open so I'd have it all to myself. He's had some pics of pretty good bucks and killed one in the 140s this past season. Keeping my fingers crossed...

I was the same way for the last four or five years. Life and work got busy, and I figured I needed to sacrifice deer or turkey hunting. I could not do away with chasing toms every spring so deer hunting was sent to the chopping block. Now that I have a little bit of gray hair and a little bit of wisdom (hopefully), I am getting back into it. I wish I would have never hung it up.

Hope the new property treats you well and you have plenty of success for years to come.

 

[Don'tDrinkTinks]

i thought this was going to be about getting CWD test results back

 

[DoubleRidge]

Doubleridge, several years ago, I hunted one farm that was 180 acres, guys around us wouldn't kill does, and we started shooting every single momma doe we saw, nothing else. First year we killed 28, next year we killed 30 We went from not seeing any mature bucks and very few bucks at all, to not only seeing a bunch of bucks but killing 3 to 5 mature bucks a season. Only killed a 10 to 15 does a season for a couple years after that and then the farm sold and turned into a subdivision. 50 does on 1200 acres sounds like a drop in the bucket.

2 things I think mattered the most is we ONLY shot momma does when shooting does and there were no cull bucks. Well many would have called them culls, but we wanted competition, the buck to doe ratio, so we did not "cull" any bucks.

WOW....that's a shame that the 180 acres was turned into a subdivision..... amazing that amount of acreage could sustain killing that many..... Also to kill 3 to 5 mature bucks from 180 acres....it bites that it's now a subdivision....sounds like it was an amazing place....I guess the guys hunting surrounding farms we're not only Not shooting does....but they must have been hammering bucks! Because to average 25 to 30 does then 10 to 15 for several years....some bucks were getting slammed somewhere.....my guess is that particular 180 acres is well above average for deer numbers per acre......which reminds me of BSK's quote in earlier post which reminds us that each management plan is "site specific".

 

[Headhunter]

Yep, those years I was scared we had killed way to many does and the next year there would be more. To an extent, the more mature does we killed, the more mature bucks we saw.

To me, getting the ratio as close to a buck to a doe does more good for seeing mature bucks than anything.

 

[easy45]

That's awesome Mike!


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