Barrel life

[TRIGGER]

How can you tell if a barrel is shot out before shooting it. What do you look for?

 

[DaveB]

You need a gunsmith with one of those cameras that goes down the barrel-- its called a bore scope I believe.

You can also tell by the degree of wear at the muzzle.

BTW, there is a process called I think fire lapping. You put some paste lapping compound in your bore and then you shoot the rifle. I believe this can be overdone and the damage is not repairable. You need a bore scope to see this kind of damage.

 

[Jcalder]

I have a 243 with the throat wore out. I did not do this but using my hornady oal gauge I can seat bullets well over 3". My other 243 is less than 2.650. A friend has a 243 wssm. It's not as bad as mine but to get to the lands the bullet is no longer in the case. Neither rifle shoots great.


Big or small, kill em all

 

[Plain Old Dave]

Well defined, shiny lands and grooves in the bore are generally a good sign. Crown condition is paramount; if the crown is worn, the burning gases will escape unevenly. As you might imagine, this isn't exactly conductive to best accuracy. But for a hunting rifle, as long as the combo is capable of hitting a dinner plate at the range you're shooting at you have all the accuracy you need.

The US military sets considerable stock in throat erosion; the burning gases cut away at the rifling at the breech end, or throat, as round count increases. However, I have owned a Finn M/39 Mosin-Nagant that had almost no rifling for the first 4 inches or so of the bore, yet still shot acceptably enough to roll tin cans.

For sporting rifles made much after the 1920s-1930s and the advent of noncorrosive priming compounds like Winchester's Staynless, Remington's Kleenbore, or RWS' Sinoxid, you almost never will see a "shot out" bore. I may well start a firestorm, but I would imagine the common sporting rifle (I.E. Remington 700, Winchester M94, etc.) is rarely fired more than 20-40 times a year and over the lifetime is probably closer to 20 rounds a year average. The US military back during the M1 Garand era established that 1000 rounds was one increment on the throat erosion gage and further that barrels with a reading of greater than 5 (or 5,000 rounds) were considered to have lost the best accuracy they were aware of. They were still considered Ready For Issue until the reading was 10, or 10,000 rounds.

A bit longwinded, but it's virtually impossible to ruin a modern highpowered hunting rifle barrel with normal use. Many are ruined through neglect, and there's another culprit: Copper fouling. A modern highpowered hunting rifle should experience a deep bore cleaning every 5 years or 500 rounds, whichever comes first, to remove copper jacket fouling. A heavily fouled barrel can be easily identified by the copper wash on the bore surface inside the muzzle in plain room lighting. And I once passed on an 1895 Winchester in .38-72 as I thought it had a ruined bore, but the fellow that wound up getting it had an Outers Foul-Out and the piece had a CENTURY of lead, jacket, and powder fouling and once cleaned had a perfect bore.

If it's YOUR rifle, clean it every time you shoot it and a lightly oiled patch before you store it for the year and the rifle will outlast YOU.

 

[7mminatree]

I have a model 700 Remington 7mag that I purchased new in 1973. There's some erosion in the throat and I don't know the round count, but it has to be north of 3K. The rifle still shoots 1/2 moa. It's never seen any factory ammo and I've rarely shot many hot loads through it. Just keep the barrel clean and don't overheat them and you'll be surprised at the life you can get.

 

[user 14220]

Well defined, shiny lands and grooves in the bore are generally a good sign. Crown condition is paramount; if the crown is worn, the burning gases will escape unevenly. As you might imagine, this isn't exactly conductive to best accuracy. But for a hunting rifle, as long as the combo is capable of hitting a dinner plate at the range you're shooting at you have all the accuracy you need.

The US military sets considerable stock in throat erosion; the burning gases cut away at the rifling at the breech end, or throat, as round count increases. However, I have owned a Finn M/39 Mosin-Nagant that had almost no rifling for the first 4 inches or so of the bore, yet still shot acceptably enough to roll tin cans.

For sporting rifles made much after the 1920s-1930s and the advent of noncorrosive priming compounds like Winchester's Staynless, Remington's Kleenbore, or RWS' Sinoxid, you almost never will see a "shot out" bore. I may well start a firestorm, but I would imagine the common sporting rifle (I.E. Remington 700, Winchester M94, etc.) is rarely fired more than 20-40 times a year and over the lifetime is probably closer to 20 rounds a year average. The US military back during the M1 Garand era established that 1000 rounds was one increment on the throat erosion gage and further that barrels with a reading of greater than 5 (or 5,000 rounds) were considered to have lost the best accuracy they were aware of. They were still considered Ready For Issue until the reading was 10, or 10,000 rounds.

A bit longwinded, but it's virtually impossible to ruin a modern highpowered hunting rifle barrel with normal use. Many are ruined through neglect, and there's another culprit: Copper fouling. A modern highpowered hunting rifle should experience a deep bore cleaning every 5 years or 500 rounds, whichever comes first, to remove copper jacket fouling. A heavily fouled barrel can be easily identified by the copper wash on the bore surface inside the muzzle in plain room lighting. And I once passed on an 1895 Winchester in .38-72 as I thought it had a ruined bore, but the fellow that wound up getting it had an Outers Foul-Out and the piece had a CENTURY of lead, jacket, and powder fouling and once cleaned had a perfect bore.

If it's YOUR rifle, clean it every time you shoot it and a lightly oiled patch before you store it for the year and the rifle will outlast YOU.

Your post was very informative but IMO cleaning a rifle barrel every time you shoot it is a time waster and can cause more harm than good. The only time I will clean a smokeless rifle or handgun barrel is if the accuracy begins to fade or I suspect something is inside the barrel or it is wet. I have never cleaned a rimfire rifle barrel in 50 years.
However, everyone needs to do what they feel is best for them.
Cheers

 

[Hunter 257W]

While I don't claim to be able to look at a rifle barrel and judge it's accuracy, there are certain type guns I wouldn't buy used. One is any heavy barrel varmint rifle chambered for anything faster than the 223 Remington. For example 22-250's, 220 Swifts, 204 Rugers, 17 Remingtons, etc. are too likely to have been shot a lot. Precision accuracy is absolutely essential with these rifles because they are made to shoot tiny critters "way out there". For that reason a relatively small accuracy loss that wouldn't matter with a deer rifle will greatly reduce the usefulness of a varmint rifle. My 22 Cheetah started losing accuracy at only 850 rounds and that's with a stainless barrel, never shooting it fast except for one quick 20 shot string early in it's life just to see how stable it would hold point-of-impact. It still shoots 5 shots into 5/8" @ 100 yards but when it was new it would hold them into more like 3/8".

Another rifle I would never buy used is one of the super accurate semi-autos such as the Les Baer AR's. Regardless of what the owner may say, you don't know how they have treated such a rifle and it's way too easy and tempting to run through a magazine as fast as you can pull the trigger on such a rifle. Do that often enough and you are going to affect the bore and accuracy.

For a lot of rifles you can overcome this to some degree by seating bullets out further. Single shots like my 22 Cheetah ( a Remington 40X ) can accept this with no problem at all. If you have a repeater with a short magazine it may not work.

 

[Plain Old Dave]

Well defined, shiny lands and grooves in the bore are generally a good sign. Crown condition is paramount; if the crown is worn, the burning gases will escape unevenly. As you might imagine, this isn't exactly conductive to best accuracy. But for a hunting rifle, as long as the combo is capable of hitting a dinner plate at the range you're shooting at you have all the accuracy you need.

The US military sets considerable stock in throat erosion; the burning gases cut away at the rifling at the breech end, or throat, as round count increases. However, I have owned a Finn M/39 Mosin-Nagant that had almost no rifling for the first 4 inches or so of the bore, yet still shot acceptably enough to roll tin cans.

For sporting rifles made much after the 1920s-1930s and the advent of noncorrosive priming compounds like Winchester's Staynless, Remington's Kleenbore, or RWS' Sinoxid, you almost never will see a "shot out" bore. I may well start a firestorm, but I would imagine the common sporting rifle (I.E. Remington 700, Winchester M94, etc.) is rarely fired more than 20-40 times a year and over the lifetime is probably closer to 20 rounds a year average. The US military back during the M1 Garand era established that 1000 rounds was one increment on the throat erosion gage and further that barrels with a reading of greater than 5 (or 5,000 rounds) were considered to have lost the best accuracy they were aware of. They were still considered Ready For Issue until the reading was 10, or 10,000 rounds.

A bit longwinded, but it's virtually impossible to ruin a modern highpowered hunting rifle barrel with normal use. Many are ruined through neglect, and there's another culprit: Copper fouling. A modern highpowered hunting rifle should experience a deep bore cleaning every 5 years or 500 rounds, whichever comes first, to remove copper jacket fouling. A heavily fouled barrel can be easily identified by the copper wash on the bore surface inside the muzzle in plain room lighting. And I once passed on an 1895 Winchester in .38-72 as I thought it had a ruined bore, but the fellow that wound up getting it had an Outers Foul-Out and the piece had a CENTURY of lead, jacket, and powder fouling and once cleaned had a perfect bore.

If it's YOUR rifle, clean it every time you shoot it and a lightly oiled patch before you store it for the year and the rifle will outlast YOU.

Your post was very informative but IMO cleaning a rifle barrel every time you shoot it is a time waster and can cause more harm than good. The only time I will clean a smokeless rifle or handgun barrel is if the accuracy begins to fade or I suspect something is inside the barrel or it is wet. I have never cleaned a rimfire rifle barrel in 50 years.
However, everyone needs to do what they feel is best for them.
Cheers

3 passes (or however many it takes to quit feeling the resistance from the fouling) with a BoreSnake having the end dipped in Hoppe's #9 will do everything routine cleaning requires. All you're doing is removing the powder fouling. It's hygroscopic; it attracts moisture and can cause corrosion.

For .22s, I do this too, and deep clean once a year or every other year.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[Jcalder]

Well defined, shiny lands and grooves in the bore are generally a good sign. Crown condition is paramount; if the crown is worn, the burning gases will escape unevenly. As you might imagine, this isn't exactly conductive to best accuracy. But for a hunting rifle, as long as the combo is capable of hitting a dinner plate at the range you're shooting at you have all the accuracy you need.

The US military sets considerable stock in throat erosion; the burning gases cut away at the rifling at the breech end, or throat, as round count increases. However, I have owned a Finn M/39 Mosin-Nagant that had almost no rifling for the first 4 inches or so of the bore, yet still shot acceptably enough to roll tin cans.

For sporting rifles made much after the 1920s-1930s and the advent of noncorrosive priming compounds like Winchester's Staynless, Remington's Kleenbore, or RWS' Sinoxid, you almost never will see a "shot out" bore. I may well start a firestorm, but I would imagine the common sporting rifle (I.E. Remington 700, Winchester M94, etc.) is rarely fired more than 20-40 times a year and over the lifetime is probably closer to 20 rounds a year average. The US military back during the M1 Garand era established that 1000 rounds was one increment on the throat erosion gage and further that barrels with a reading of greater than 5 (or 5,000 rounds) were considered to have lost the best accuracy they were aware of. They were still considered Ready For Issue until the reading was 10, or 10,000 rounds.

A bit longwinded, but it's virtually impossible to ruin a modern highpowered hunting rifle barrel with normal use. Many are ruined through neglect, and there's another culprit: Copper fouling. A modern highpowered hunting rifle should experience a deep bore cleaning every 5 years or 500 rounds, whichever comes first, to remove copper jacket fouling. A heavily fouled barrel can be easily identified by the copper wash on the bore surface inside the muzzle in plain room lighting. And I once passed on an 1895 Winchester in .38-72 as I thought it had a ruined bore, but the fellow that wound up getting it had an Outers Foul-Out and the piece had a CENTURY of lead, jacket, and powder fouling and once cleaned had a perfect bore.

If it's YOUR rifle, clean it every time you shoot it and a lightly oiled patch before you store it for the year and the rifle will outlast YOU.

Your post was very informative but IMO cleaning a rifle barrel every time you shoot it is a time waster and can cause more harm than good. The only time I will clean a smokeless rifle or handgun barrel is if the accuracy begins to fade or I suspect something is inside the barrel or it is wet. I have never cleaned a rimfire rifle barrel in 50 years.
However, everyone needs to do what they feel is best for them.
Cheers

I'm gonna agree with snowwolfe on this. Most rifles get shot very little every year. There is no need nor sense in having more passes with a cleaning rod than bullets shot thru it. Myself included, you can ruin a barrel with a cleaning rod if you're not careful


Big or small, kill em all

 

[Plain Old Dave]

If a firearm is discharged, it MUST be cleaned. A dirty rifle is a neglected rifle, and if I had a nickel for every neglected rifle I have bought over the years with a "shot out" bore that came back to life with a good, complete deep cleaning I would be quite well off, and that includes .22s that had "glitter" in the bore fouling from decades of lead fouling. I have bought rifles that it took MONTHS to get all the copper and powder fouling out of, and have even had some that NEVER came completely clean. There are some I have had that shot slightly better after "fouling shots" but a clean rifle being more accurate than a dirty one is a reasonably accurate generalization.

The cleaning rod is a valuable tool for small arms maintenance, but only A tool. You have GOT to get the powder fouling out of the bore when you shoot, as if you don't it attracts moisture and WILL rust your barrel. The BoreSnake I mentioned is a superb tool for this task. I have them ranging from .22 all the way up to .375 for rifles and .45 for pistols.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/uimages ... nake_m.jpg

That's a .22 caliber; really, a boresnake is a giant shoelace with a copper brush designed into it. Drop the weighted end down the bore from the breech end if possible and pull it through. For guns where this isn't possible, or where bolt removal is daunting or impossible without tools (Remington 742/760 or Winchester leverguns) you can drop the weighted end down the muzzle as there's no cleaning rod to damage your barrel crown.

 

[MUP]

It makes sense to me to at least run a couple patches thru and lightly oil after evedy shooting session to get the moisture attracting fouling out.

 

[7mminatree]

Everyone has their methods. I like to run one patch of butches bore shine and then a few dry patches and then a couple of light oil patches through the bore at the end of my shooting session, while the bore is still warm I might add. I only deep clean when I see copper wash at the muzzle. I like to run a dry tight patch through the barrel to feel the resistance. If it pushes through smoothly, it's usually good to go. If I feel a drag in the push then I may use some JB bore paste to slick the bore back up. It's been working for 45 years.

I can only think of two barrels that I've shot out. One was a .243 that I roasted out in Wyoming shooting prairie dogs. And the other was .220 swift that I was pushing every load in excess of 4000 fps with 52 gr. Bullets :mrgreen: