Arguments for low grading inferior 2 year old bucks?

[pass-thru]

Let me say up front that I am completely aware that you can't genetically engineer a wild deer herd, so in no way does concern for passing on genes influence this discussion on my part.

A number of years ago I started making a conscious effort to pass up 2 year old bucks, figuring that is the most important age class to protect in order to have older good bucks. But one thing that I've noticed is that there are always some 2 year old bucks that are way behind the curve in antler size....so, do these bucks ever catch up?

My hunch is that they don't. So, is there any benefit to keeping them around? Don't they just consume resources that could go to other deer?

To qualify, where I hunt there are 50 deer per square mile and you get three buck tags. I rarely use more than one and always shoot a lot of does.

I'm saying this is the direction I want to go in, but I am curious as to what are the arguments for and against low grading 2 year old bucks.

 

[GRIT]

Not every buck will get a huge rack some will some won't.

 

[TheLBLman]

But one thing that I've noticed is that there are always some 2 year old bucks that are way behind the curve in antler size....so, do these bucks ever catch up?

Yes.
Many of them are NOT genetically inferior,
but simply "late born", often to a mother bred as a fawn.

Also, many of those in the 2 1/2-yr-old male cohort exhibiting "above average" antlers
are not necessarily genetically superior, but rather, early born.

The date of birth (early born vs late born) has a much greater effect on the 2 1/2-yr-old cohort's antlers
than the antler growth of 3 1/2 and older bucks. By the Age of 4 1/2, birth date is no longer having any significant effect on antler growth.

Bottom line, it is often an issue of birth dates rather than genetics,
and time (like another year to 3 1/2) levels the playing field.

 

[TheLBLman]

"Early" born male fawns (say born in April or May)
get a tremendous "head start" in food resources and antler growth
as compared to more "normal" born fawns (say born in late May or June).

But "late" born male fawns (say born in July, August, and sometimes even September)
get a tremendous shortage of food resources (at least on a comparative or relative basis)
to other bucks in their respective age cohorts (fawns, yearlings, 2 1/2's, and 3 1/2's).

Again, the disadvantage of less food sources on antler growth for the late born
is typically mostly gone by the time they reach the 3 1/2-yr-old age class.

The problem with "culling" in wild deer herds is
we will often cull the wrong animals due to our erroneous assumptions,
especially when the buck in question is 2 1/2 or younger.

In theory, low-grading the antlers makes sense.
In reality, the bucks need to be 3 1/2 or older before you start.
I'm personally more concerned about the high-grading of our best young bucks,
which I believe has become the lowest hole in the bucket of QDM.

IMO, the best solution to our antler dilemmas
is to go totally to age based buck harvests, simply ignoring the antlers.
In other words, don't kill any bucks until they appear 4 1/2 or older.
(A mistake would generally still be 3 1/2 or older.)
This generally works for me, but may be an unreasonable criteria for the majority of hunters.

 

[knightrider]

No to Young to know what they will be, heck most deer never start to blossom till 4.5, there is no way to know what they will do from 2.5 to 4.5

 

[TX300mag]

I agree with LBL man about high-grading 2.5y/o bucks. With the rise in popularity of passing 1.5 y/o, the nicer 2.5s are paying the price.

I don't run cameras, so I'm often encountering deer for the first time with little time and have been guilty of killing a couple on public land.

I'm not a good enough hunter to target 4.5 as a minimum, but a mistake would more likely result in a 3.5 as LBL man said.

I would never cull a 2.5 y/o, or any buck for that matter. Back in my Texas days I killed spikes by the truckload, though. [emoji23] and I thought I was doing everyone a favor.


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[Boll Weevil]

Agree with others...no way to tell what a deer is gonna do at just 2.5 years.

 

[landman]

I'm with Wes

Deer are being born over a 5 month period some are going to be better developed

Today while hunting I had about 15 bucks on 2 different does, over half were 2.5 year old bucks, a good looking crop of 3.5 yr old bucks for next year IMO, plus The 3 and 4 yr old bucks today wasn't bad eithe

 

[pass-thru]

I understand the late born fawn theory, but I don't think it applies to the vast majority of low grade 2 year old bucks. I have never seen a fawn on our place before May, and never seen one with spots past August....and I've been running trail cams for close to twenty years. Virtually all of our does are bred between Oct-Dec. And the deer are generally healthy. The bucks that I have been able to track from 2-3, or 3-4, that had poor antlers...some of them were pigs in the body, and none ever seemed to improve much. So is it worth it to save 4 that will never improve much, to keep one that might?

Here's an example, I could have shot this buck around the time the first photo was taken, don't know what became of him:

 

[MickThompson]

Deer aren't cattle and it doesn't usually work out to manage them as such.

How many acres to you have control over?

Buck management in a free ranging herd is simple- shoot the one that makes you happy.


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[Ridgewalker1]

Deer aren't cattle and it doesn't usually work out to manage them as such. Well said.

How many acres to you have control over?

Buck management in a free ranging herd is simple- shoot the one that makes you happy.


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[pass-thru]

Buck management in a free ranging herd is simple- shoot the one that makes you happy.


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To suggest that this discussion resembles cattle management is just silly.

It is conversations like these that have advance hunters making educated decisions about killing bucks. 20 years ago most hunters just blasted at yearlings until they were tagged out and few had an opportunity at great bucks. Even though I hunt relatively small acreage in a heavily hunted area (7-10k tagged in my county each year, or 13 deer killed psm) I always feel like I have a reasonable chance to take a great deer going into the season.

 

[MickThompson]

Genetic culling is a legitimate agricultural practice. But it depends on good fences to keep an unwanted bull out and to keep the neighbor's herd from mowing down your pastures.

As others have said, there is science on the relationship between birthdate and antler points/score. You can't overcome that. Fewer bucks would probably set you back here by extending the rut, resulting in more late born fawns.

What do you think is limiting your bucks? Age? Nutrition? The average buck "wants" to be about 115" 8 pointer around here. Shooting bucks at 2.5 just means they will be never reach their potential at 4.5+, whether it's a 100" rack or 180" rack.

By your own description, your area is heavily hunted. You estimate that 30% of the herd is killed annually- how does fewer bucks reaching maturity help you kill more big deer? Maximize your nutrition and cover, and that doesn't mean just pretty green food plots. 70% of what deer eat in the summer is native weeds and browse. That might mean burning, timber management, or killing fescue. Then give the deer time to show you what they can be.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I would have a hard time justifying it based on the current knowledge base we have for deer.


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[TheLBLman]

Last but not least,
if YOU kill more of your "inferior" younger bucks,
other hunters will kill more of your superior older bucks.

 

[poorhunter]

A buck (normally) will only reach its full antler potential IF it reaches 3.5 (sometimes) more often 4.5+ years old. Management FOR larger antlers should have this as the primary goal...more bucks getting older. It's simple.

Problem is large antlers are not every deer hunters primary goal, mine included.

 

[DRSJ35]

I think large antlers is what most people are hunting for.Most of the time they don't get it.So they settle for whatever they can get.I only hunt public land cause i have no choice.I let younger spikes walk never even considering shooting them.I know somebody might but i hope they don't.I see it as i'm not starving if i don't kill something. and this is the only place i have to hunt.Maybe just maybe i will see him again.But if somebody happily choose's to kill young one's.Then i'm happy for them.

 

[TX300mag]

20 years ago culling was the "thing." Maybe not in TN, but in other places. During this time we've learned more through trial and error. Culling is still practiced on intensively managed herds in Texas (mainly high fence) but NOT on 2.5 year old bucks. These bucks are culled as 5.5 year-old 8 points for example.

There are still plenty shooting spikes in less intensive programs but IMO that is a compromise (excuse) that makes hunters feel better about shooting a buck.

The most accurate definition of a cull buck: a buck that will never be a big buck because he'sDEAD.

A management buck is the only buck I could "manage" to kill.




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[TheLBLman]

The most accurate definition of a cull buck: a buck that will never be a big buck because he's DEAD.

A management buck is the only buck I could "manage" to kill.

And somewhere in between, here in TN we have the "scrub" buck :tu:

 

[TN Larry]

I see no reason to shoot one unless it just makes you happy. You are really not going to know until at least 3.5 and more than likely 4.5. BSK posted one on here a few years ago that if I remember right was just a 12 or 13" wide 6 pt at 2.5 and seems like a 100" 8 pt at 3.5. He blew up into an absolute giant at either 4.5 or 5.5, can't remember. There was something about him on his body that he could tell was the same deer. This doesn't always happen, but I don't think that smaller 2.5 yos are hurting anything.

 

[Smo]

I own only 79 acres, there are several other landowners surrounding me who own much more land than me.

We all collectively agreed to harvest only older 8 point bucks or better

The properties I'm refering to make up 1500 to 2000 acres, including my 79.

These properties are owned my 5 or 6 individuals.

The problem is there are others in the area who rent, or own land that do not adhear to our course of management.

One Guy in our neck of the woods owns 5 acres.

This Guy shoots anything he sees, and I can't say that I blame him.

The man has 4 small kids 8 yo and under .

A Wife and Mother in his house and he works on a farm.

I'm sure if it wasn't for the deer meat his Family would not eat as well as they do.

You can't blame a man for feeding his Family.

In my oppion between Guys like I'm talking about, and road hunters managing small parcels of land is almost impossible.

The buck "We" don't shoot today, leaves one for a hungry Family or a poacher to kill tomorrow .

By the way , I see more bucks 2.5 to 3.5 yo than I do Does on my property.

I still go by " our" neighborhood agreement but feel like it's not helping much.

Our agreement originally was 8 points or better. Not just for "mature" bucks.

 

[pass-thru]

To be sure, I'm not advocating that inferior 2 year old bucks be killed or even removed from protection, I'm just interested in hearing the arguments for an against. Keeping the breeding season compressed is definitely a good thing, and I think that is one way that we are lucky, as I mentioned earlier.

This has been a frustrating year for me as far as antler development and buck sightings go. If you notice the pics I posted earlier, that was from the '13 and 14 seasons. We had drought conditions and no acorns in '13. None of my bucks seemed to put on any growth in '14, and that's understandable due to the tough year before. But now we've not had drought and had plenty of acorns and soft mast in '14, 15, 16 and 17. Yet I am seeing more poorly developed bucks this year than I have in years, and no great ones. I had several mature deer that made it through last seasons, and I can't track them over to this season either because they're not here or the racks not recognizable....I suspect it's a combination.

I was expecting this to be a great year. But I have seen virtually no bucks 2 or older while hunting. A couple dozen yearlings, and a ton of does. The yearlings slowly disappeared through 2 week rifle season and no doubt many have been killed. Saw zero rutting activity from the stand this year. It seems the rut was late and mostly at night. I had hot does in the vicinity of my cams three times this year at night, and got lots of photographs during those events. But none of this played out during the days I was hunting.

The strangest day for me was Nov 10th. I sat the whole afternoon in my best stand. Saw 2 doe/fawn groups move through, one with 5, the other with 7, and one lone buck cruising. I shot a mature doe out of the first group. Very strange to see them grouped up that early.

Anyway, I am still getting night pics of some of these not so great 2-3 year old bucks, rifle season's over, so most of them should be around next year.

Also for the record, I shoot my share of does every year...at least 3 up to 7 every year. I do think a reduction in overall deer numbers would be helpful for the deer here. Also, the 160 acre property next to mine is brown it's down...they have told me they shoot average of 25 deer a year with 7 guys hunting. The last time I talked to the owner he said they had never taken a buck over 110", but that was a few years ago.

 

[Smo]

To be sure, I'm not advocating that inferior 2 year old bucks be killed or even removed from protection, I'm just interested in hearing the arguments for an against. Keeping the breeding season compressed is definitely a good thing, and I think that is one way that we are lucky, as I mentioned earlier.

This has been a frustrating year for me as far as antler development and buck sightings go. If you notice the pics I posted earlier, that was from the '13 and 14 seasons. We had drought conditions and no acorns in '13. None of my bucks seemed to put on any growth in '14, and that's understandable due to the tough year before. But now we've not had drought and had plenty of acorns and soft mast in '14, 15, 16 and 17. Yet I am seeing more poorly developed bucks this year than I have in years, and no great ones. I had several mature deer that made it through last seasons, and I can't track them over to this season either because they're not here or the racks not recognizable....I suspect it's a combination.

I was expecting this to be a great year. But I have seen virtually no bucks 2 or older while hunting. A couple dozen yearlings, and a ton of does. The yearlings slowly disappeared through 2 week rifle season and no doubt many have been killed. Saw zero rutting activity from the stand this year. It seems the rut was late and mostly at night. I had hot does in the vicinity of my cams three times this year at night, and got lots of photographs during those events. But none of this played out during the days I was hunting.

The strangest day for me was Nov 10th. I sat the whole afternoon in my best stand. Saw 2 doe/fawn groups move through, one with 5, the other with 7, and one lone buck cruising. I shot a mature doe out of the first group. Very strange to see them grouped up that early.

Anyway, I am still getting night pics of some of these not so great 2-3 year old bucks, rifle season's over, so most of them should be around next year.

Also for the record, I shoot my share of does every year...at least 3 up to 7 every year. I do think a reduction in overall deer numbers would be helpful for the deer here. Also, the 160 acre property next to mine is brown it's down...they have told me they shoot average of 25 deer a year with 7 guys hunting. The last time I talked to the owner he said they had never taken a buck over 110", but that was a few years ago.

That's my point exactly!

In my area over the last few years with 3 Doe a day limits my total deer sightings are down.

Buck sightings are down too. But still seen a few early in Nov.

Only two being racked Bucks.

We had almost Zero mast crop this year, so there's nothing here for them.

My cameras aren't getting pics. And it's hard cut a fresh track.

The only hope I've got left is I planted Winter wheat late and it's just breaking through the leaves.

Hopefully that will drag a few deer back my way.

I know they are still in the general area from My & my Wife's trips in and out.

 

[catman529]

I think 2.5 is still too young to get a real idea of anger potential since they were likely still growing their body while their rack grew. I do get excited to see a top end 2.5 year old, I'm sure a good portion of high grade bucks do grow up to be bigger than the lower grade 2 year olds. I am sure it varies too much to really judge a deer that hasn't reached its potential yet.


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[MickThompson]

Pass-thru
You can't kill what isn't there. And from your last post, it seems like you have an age structure issue, not a nutrition or genetic issue. Sometimes they shift ranges, get hit by cars, poached, etc. You can't control it.

I wouldn't get hung up on how many does you should shoot either.

I still stand by my overly simplified philosophy of buck management. Shoot what makes you happy. I think we have all struggled with pressuring ourselves to kill that monster buck but all we can do is stack the deck as best as possible in the context of our geography and the regulations we are hunting under through habitat work, scouting, and patience.


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[pass-thru]

I'll be eager to see if this guy makes it through:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=353081

Not sure when I last had pics of him, but he has potential to blow up into something special next year.

 

[Jmed]

Just my thoughts, those young bucks have zero chance to "catch up" if they get shot. If you are trying to thin the herd for health, just stay after the does. I took an odd buck in KY this year, but one I am very happy with. he has been a 4 on one side, spike on the other for 2 years and no one wanted to blow their buck tag on him until this year. he blew up this year and will make a nice addition to my wall. After getting my hands on him, it was obvious that it was not a genetic issue, but a damaged peticle that created the abnormality. Yeah, maybe one day I will kill a 20 pointer but my goal is to kill the most mature buck I can, regardless of score. shooting those 2 year old bucks is not going to free up that much food and will just be burning your buck tags.

 

[Talome13]

Good discussion