Antlerless numbers

[AT Hiker]

Here are some comparisons from this year and last per harvest totals. I did my own research because I was having trouble filtering through the other post and deciphering what was what (be warned, I may have did something wrong on the TWRA site so my numbers could be off).

14-15 / 15-16 ( Difference)

Total 164,930 / 167,307 (+2,377)

Antlered 76608 / 78794 (+2,186)

Doe 69431 / 77054 (+7,623)

Button 8273 / 8396 (+123)

Antlerless 10618 / 3063 (-7,555)

Just looking at these numbers two things really pop out to me. The dramatic decrease in ANTLERLESS deer and the almost mirrored increase in doe harvest. At first I was all excited to think hunters were being more careful before they pulled the trigger, after all going from 10k to 3k is very noticeable. Now that I have typed out the two seasons side by side something else popped out...that was the doe harvest.

Did hunters all of a sudden check these antlerless deer in as does?

Did hunters actually take more time before they pulled the trigger to ID if it had 3"+ antlers?

Combo of both?

The button kill numbers are up slightly as well. I would think if hunters killed a sub 3" antlered deer and checked it in as a doe I would like to think they would do the same for a button buck too. But who knows.

Its hard for me to discern this so I will post a interview I read from Chuck Yoest; full article here http://newschannel9.com/sports/outdoors ... buck-limit

[i]Yoest said, "It is really too early to tell [if the regulation made a difference] because it's just one year. But there are some promising indications."

One indicator Yoest said was most interesting was a dramatic reduction in the "Anterless Buck Harvest." Those are one-and-a-half year old deer that have small spikes, however their antlers have not reached the 3-inch minimum to legally qualify as an "Antlered Buck." Yoest points out that in the 2014-15 season, there were more than 10,000 such antlerless bucks. In the most recent season, however, there were just over 3,000 -- a decrease of 71 percent.

"That could be an indicator that people really were being more selective," he said.[/i]

I stole this from Vermin, he paraphrased from a recent TFWC meeting;*this throw me for a minute until I compared the numbers
TFWC Commissioner Kurt Holbert made a comment that I would rephrase this way....(my words) "Tennessee has a lot of confused hunters that can't seem to grasp the concept of an antlerless buck and have no clue how to check one in." I think this is likely, which is a big reason why I don't like Tennessee's definition of antlered deer. Make it simple for the simple-minded. If a deer has visible antlers, it's an antlered deer and it burns a buck tag if you kill it.

Yoest seems to think the decrease in antlerless is legit as Holbert makes it seem like people cheated (thats my interpretation now that I have looked at numbers side-by-side). Both make sense to me now that I see the hard numbers.

 

[WG Taxidermist]

I'd say there were less deer checked in as a whole.

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[AT Hiker]

I'd say there were less deer checked in as a whole.

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So you think the numbers should be higher? For example; "Joey killed a 2" spike but didnt check it in and Bob killed a small 8pt but didnt want to burn his tag so he didnt check it in either"

I can see some people doing that, sadly I think they probably do that every year. Being hopeful I think they are a very small minority, yet if you read between the lines at the commission meeting and look at the antlerless vs doe numbers then you might interpret they are not in the minority anymore.

 

[WG Taxidermist]

I would agree that they aren't in the minority anymore. I personally see more and more of it happening every year.

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[Vermin93]

Watch the video of the Thursday meeting. Both theories for the drop in the antlerless buck harvest were mentioned. Mark Gudlin from TWRA suggested hunters may have been more selective in order to not burn one of their 2 buck tags. TFWC Commissioner Kurt Holbert indicated he had heard from several hunters who don't understand the whole antlerless buck concept and who therefore checked their antlerless bucks in as does.

If we have that many hunters who can't figure it out, then in my opinion a change in the definition of antlered deer or a change in the check in process should be seriously considered. Having to attach a picture with online check in could help, but that can be manipulated by dishonest hunters. Kansas tries to keep people honest by requiring a picture of the tagged deer, and the tag number must be clearly visible in the picture.

 

[AXL78]

I may be wrong, but I think it points out that Kurt Holbert is wrong in his assessment that hunters are confused about what is an antlerless buck. I think the numbers point out that they were very aware of what constitutes an antlerless buck.

There is no doubt cheating. It's a lot more prevalent than people give credit in my opinion.

 

[AT Hiker]

Watch the video of the Thursday meeting. Both theories for the drop in the antlerless buck harvest were mentioned.

Cool. I didn't realize it was being talked about.

 

[Buzzard Breath]

Doe 69431 / 77054 (+7,623)

Antlerless 10618 / 3063 (-7,555)

Just looking at these numbers two things really pop out to me. The dramatic decrease in ANTLERLESS deer and the almost mirrored increase in doe harvest. At first I was all excited to think hunters were being more careful before they pulled the trigger, after all going from 10k to 3k is very noticeable. Now that I have typed out the two seasons side by side something else popped out...that was the doe harvest.

Did hunters all of a sudden check these antlerless deer in as does?

I believe these antlerless bucks were killed and checked in as does. The reason being because of the mobile app. I bet if TWRA got to looking into it, they would find the discrepancy there.

If you've killed a small spike, less that 3"s and get to this screen, what button are you hitting?



You're given two choices and the button to "complete harvest". Even though it has the statement about buttons and spikes on the screen, it doesn't explain to click male. If you hadn't checked in a deer on the app before and didn't know there were more questions to follow, most are going to click female. I think as more people use the app and become acquainted with it, the antlerless buck harvest will go up.

 

[Vermin93]

Wow, it couldn't be more crystal clear on the app...

 

[TheLBLman]

Did hunters all of a sudden check these antlerless deer in as does?

Did hunters actually take more time before they pulled the trigger to ID if it had 3"+ antlers?

Combo of both?

Did the deer "check-in" procedure all of a sudden change? Was the process any different in 2015 vs. 2014?

I don't know if there were any changes or not, but I completed several online check-ins in both 2015 and 2014 and didn't notice any differences in the process.

But to answer AT Hiker's question, I do suspect it was a "Combo of both".

I disagree with the idea the buck limit change suddenly made some hunters dishonest. Now this change might make it a little less easy for a dishonest hunter to get away with killing an extra buck, might make it a little more trouble to retain that last buck tag if you're used to killing multiple bucks annually, but no way did this change make any honest person suddenly dishonest.

 

[TheLBLman]

The button kill numbers are up slightly as well. I would think if hunters killed a sub 3" antlered deer and checked it in as a doe I would like to think they would do the same for a button buck too. But who knows.

I was checking in, measuring, aging, weighing a deer for a hunter on the last weekend of the season, when he told me he had already checked it in on his smart phone.

That particular deer was a 1 1/2-yr-old male which had already shed both his antlers as of January 2, 2016. This deer appeared very fat & healthy (had kidney fat visible in the abdominal cavity). The hunter had checked in this deer as a "button" buck, while it should properly have been checked in as an "antlerless" buck. This was the only one I personally encountered that had been pre-checked incorrectly this past season.

But HIS adult antlerless buck had been erroneously checked in as a button buck fawn (rather than a "doe" as some are theorizing might be happening).

Often, we find outcomes to be counter-intuitive to our expectations. I actually expected to see a slight increase in the number of antlerless bucks this year, but for a reason that had little to do with buck limits.

I believe when a buck's fall diet contains less carbs, they tend to shed their antlers just a little earlier. Individual bucks have never shed their antlers at the same time as all other bucks, as there's is always a few which shed in late December, and generally at least a few still holding into April. However, if a particular buck might be genetically inclined to normally shed his antlers around January 7th, I believe a fall diet low in acorns might move it up a week or so to late December. This could cause quite a few more bucks to be observed without antlers before deer season ended, and some get shot as "antlerless" deer, typically because the shooters believe them to be adult females.

Across TN, most areas had a relatively poor acorn crop. So let's, for example, assume 90% of adult antlered bucks might normally shed their antlers sometime between January 5 and March 5. Take a lot of carbs out of their diets, I believe it could move those dates up to say December 25 and February 25 (still leaving quite a few to shed even earlier in December, and even later into March and April). Actually, it's probably not "carbs", but more the fat and protein content of those acorns?

Add a lot more carbs, fat, and protein (such as from a huge acorn crop), then maybe 90% might be shedding later between January 20 and March 20 ---- with very, very few shedding their antlers before the end of deer season. We had somewhat the opposite this year, so I expected the antlerless buck harvest to be higher. I was wrong.

 

[landman]

I would agree that they aren't in the minority anymore. I personally see more and more of it happening every year.

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Meaning

You are being told by hunters they are doing this?

Or you are hunting with people who don't check in their deer?

 

[WG Taxidermist]

I disagree with the idea the buck limit change suddenly made some hunters dishonest. Now this change might make it a little less easy for a dishonest hunter to get away with killing an extra buck, might make it a little more trouble to retain that last buck tag if you're used to killing multiple bucks annually, but no way did this change make any honest person suddenly dishonest.[/quote]

I disagree. It's easier for dishonest people to get that extra buck without the fear of getting caught than it ever has been. Yes they had the same check in in 2014 but my guess is there wasn't as many people that knew how to use the app or even had the app because it was still a new app as there were in 2015. Vermin93 here is where you come in with a chart to prove me wrong.[emoji57] In my opinion when you've got a 48 hour grace period before you have to check a deer in there's alot of deer that can disappear in that amount of time.

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[WG Taxidermist]

I would agree that they aren't in the minority anymore. I personally see more and more of it happening every year.

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Meaning

You are being told by hunters they are doing this?

Or you are hunting with people who don't check in their deer?

I've personally seen it and I know people that does it and have done it for years with no consequence. I have anywhere from 3 to 5 deer taken out of my field every year and it is reported by me and there is never anything done.

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[WG Taxidermist]

I would agree that they aren't in the minority anymore. I personally see more and more of it happening every year.

Sent from somewhere in the sticks using Tapatalk

Meaning

You are being told by hunters they are doing this?

Or you are hunting with people who don't check in their deer?

That's not accounting all the crazy things I seen as a taxidermist over the years. It's amazing what people will try to sneak by you just to get something mounted.

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[TheLBLman]

Most of us tend to "pal around", do the discretionary things we like most, with people who "think" much like ourselves?

Find a group of deer hunters who hunt or camp out anywhere (whether it be LBL or the Cherokee National Forest), and you'll typically see that the group is either a bunch of highly accomplished avid hunters, or the group is a bunch of less experienced ones, maybe no one in the group has ever killed a deer.

Just trying to say there is much truth in that old adage, "Birds of a feather, flock together."

Not saying we don't find novice hunters joining the groups of highly experienced ones, and vice-versa, but people do tend to be friends and "hang out" with people much like themselves when they're free to make those choices in a non-workplace environment.

Most of us either reading or posting on TNdeer.com are not "novice" hunters, we're not even "average" ones --- we tend to be in that minority of regularly successful deer hunters who kill deer every year, not just once every few years. When it comes to anything about deer, it can sometimes be hard for us to relate to someone who goes deer hunting only 2 or 3 weekends a year, and has seldom if ever killed a deer.

 

[TheLBLman]

Many of the most avid hunters I know, they only deer hunt 2 or 3 trips annually, never mind they hunt other things like waterfowl and doves more than most avid deer hunters hunt deer. I have a good friend who lives to hunt "birds". He just spent his annual vacation pheasant hunting in Kansas. To my knowledge, he never failed to hunt every weekend the past many months. But he typically only deer hunts a weekend or two annually, typically kills "a" deer (or two), then continues hunting some type of game that flies rather than walks. He enjoys deer hunting, just enjoys other hunting more. He eats venison, just doesn't want more than 1 or 2 a year.

I have other "sportsmen" friends who would rather go fishing in November than deer hunt in November, never mind they are actually accomplished deer hunters, they just prefer to spend more time fishing than hunting. One of them doesn't even deer hunt, and he wears me out trying to get me to go fishing with him in the fall (including November). I even went with him once this year when it was a better day to be deer hunting. Even enjoyed the fishing, never mind I was all the time wondering what I would have seen had I been sitting on a deer stand instead.

Anyway, while most of us can't imagine mistaking an antlerless adult buck for a doe, it may be that most hunters simply don't take any aspects of all this as seriously as we do. Meanwhile I do believe most people are pretty honest, and most really honest people will choose to disassociate with the dishonest.

 

[scn]

I disagree with the idea the buck limit change suddenly made some hunters dishonest. Now this change might make it a little less easy for a dishonest hunter to get away with killing an extra buck, might make it a little more trouble to retain that last buck tag if you're used to killing multiple bucks annually, but no way did this change make any honest person suddenly dishonest.

I disagree. It's easier for dishonest people to get that extra buck without the fear of getting caught than it ever has been. Yes they had the same check in in 2014 but my guess is there wasn't as many people that knew how to use the app or even had the app because it was still a new app as there were in 2015. Vermin93 here is where you come in with a chart to prove me wrong.[emoji57] In my opinion when you've got a 48 hour grace period before you have to check a deer in there's alot of deer that can disappear in that amount of time.

Sent from somewhere in the sticks using Tapatalk[/quote]

You don't have a 48 hour grace period to check in your deer. The regulations state that the deer must be checked in before the end of the calendar day. If you gift it to another, or take it out of state, it has to be checked in before either happens, even if it is still within the calendar day.

 

[Biggun4214]

As far as talking its amazing how many hunters I have personally talked to that have checked an antlerless buck out as a "doe." After explaining the full process many call and change it. Most of people aren't very good at reading the complete instructions and following them.

 

[huntinkev]

I don't think think there is anyone that is confused with the antlerless check in...but with those comments and from the twrc....does this mean they will change the rules again and count an antlerless deer as a buck tag?

What do you do if let's say you already burnt both tags and are doe hunting and you shoot what you thought was a doe but in fact was antlerless male.

I think the rules are fine the way they are...antlered and anlterless.