Ames question

[JeepKuntry]

TWRA knows the herd will not be eliminated. They also know that you could eradicate the entire herd, wait 10 years, then reintroduce and positives would start again. It's in the soil. Until they figure out how to address that they are hopeful that it's contained. My Uncle shot a great 8 pt, my guess is 4 1/2, possibly 5 1/2. Deer looked perfectly healthy and came back positive. I agree with fairchaser that bucks will probably have a higher cwd rate as many are targeting mature deer so they have a few years to contract.

 

[redblood]

Y'all are gonna lose another big group of hunters this next season. I realize the goal now but the over harvest of does has been a major problem since the club started. It's done way more damage than cwd in that area and now members are shooting everything they see. Say what you want but the management has always been subpar. Someone is needed that not only has the biological background and the general common sense of how to keep an area productive. One of those qualities has always been lacking from there.

Never set foot on Ames so know very little. But i cant understand shooting a subpar deer or doe, just because someone said it was now allowable to do so

 

[Headhunter]

Never set foot on Ames so know very little. But i cant understand shooting a subpar deer or doe, just because someone said it was now allowable to do so

It would be different if killing ALL the deer had never been tried or had worked successfully, either slowing CWD, learning from it, or stopping it, but all that has happened where this approach has been tried is a huge number of deer are killed and nothing learned, and CWD has not been stopped or even slowed.

 

[easy45]

It would be different if killing ALL the deer had never been tried or had worked successfully, either slowing CWD, learning from it, or stopping it, but all that has happened where this approach has been tried is a huge number of deer are killed and nothing learned, and CWD has not been stopped or even slowed.

Exactly

 

[easy45]

I've been hunting Ames for the past ten years and I can assure you CWD is having a serious effect on the herd. There are fewer deer and the bucks at least are younger. It's all not from over harvest.
It does make sense to kill what's there if the infection rate is much higher than the surrounding area. The less infected deer will move into the area and lower the infection rate.
It's really the only tool we have right now.
I attended a meeting this past Spring where state biologists, a CWD expert from Wisconsin and large landowners talked about CWD and what we've learned over the decades about this disease. Allowing CWD to run rampant in areas where the rate is high, is devastating to the herd in that area and a threat to surrounding areas to spread infection quickly.
it may be too late to accomplish much at this point but they have to try. The deer herd will rebound. Whitetails are survivors. I'm not sure that it's going to help me much at my age but it's probably the right call for the future. The only alternative is to ignore the disease and hope the herd doesn't fall off a cliff. So far all but one buck has come back positive for CWD.

That has nothing to do with CWD, it has everything to do with the management of Ames and how the club has been run. You can't sustain a healthy deer herd when you wipe out the does in the area and as far as more younger bucks, well yea, if the does are not there then the mature bucks have no reason to be there not to mention having an antler restriction has caused the high grading and killing of every descent young buck over the years. You can say the state of the area wasn't caused by Ames but I've been hunting that area for almost 20 years and have seen the gradual destruction of the age class, numbers, and honestly the quality of the bucks ever since they established the club. Having a capable manager probably could have prevented that instead of being run by agriculture and forestry specialist.

 

[fairchaser]

Six years ago, everything Ames had done for QDM was running on all cylinders. Members were killing 30-35 bucks over 125 or 4.5 years old and that year 2014 they killed 10 bucks over 140. Then things started leveling out and by 2017, things were declining but no one knew why. Once CWD was discovered, Ames took action to determine how much was there and it turned out quite a lot. By the next season, they cut back on the doe goals and lowered buck minimum score requirements. This year management decided they could sit back and watch or try to do something. One thing that's unique about Ames is the 20 years of data on the deer herd and the fact that they are a research facility. This year we are collecting poop and hair samples on all harvested deer for DNA research. This could tell us information on CWD not known before. We know the location of deer harvested too to try and make any connections between fecal samples and CWD.
Instead of running Ames down with arm chair quarter backing, deer hunters everywhere should appreciate what Ames is trying to accomplish.

 

[Andy S.]

Two of our best !

Lost Lake & Snake,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm definitely still around, and not going anywhere anytime soon. I have not hunted Ames since 2018. I poured 15 years of my life into scouting and hunting there, had some great hunts, killed some nice mature bucks, made MANY great memories and made A LOT of friends for life. Now I stay plugged into Ames through constant communication with current members and neighboring landowners. Like so many of you, my life has become busier than ever with new job opportunities and a growing family. I still squirrel, turkey and deer hunt a fair amount and I still log into TnDeer weekly, and most weeks, daily.

Worth mentioning is the buck in my avatar is one of the last few mature bucks I killed at Ames. Ames staff aged him at 4.5+ by TR&W, I aged him at 5.5+ by TR&W, and a forensic aging lab concluded 6.5 using Cementum Annuli method. Most likely the oldest wild fair chase buck I will ever kill in SW TN.

 

[mike243]

I am thankful that they are doing research in a effort to help stop or at least get a good understanding of the disease , no idea of the history to any extent of them. Everybody with common sense knew this was coming here, there is no stopping it at this time, its going to take a lot of deer out of the herd and I pray it wont ever cross over to humans. when that happens you will see the government step in and probably make a bigger mess

 

[SilvaDoc]

Regarding Easy45's post of Dr Houston as a "forestry specialist," I thought I might chime in because I am familiar with those circumstances; and, too, they are a matter of record at UT's Department of Forestry, Wildlife and Fisheries, where he is a Professor of forest/wildlife Ecology. Dr Houston has a BS in Wildlife and another BS in Forestry. His Masters is in Forest Management with a minor in Wildlife. His PhD is in Ecology, and evenly divided between wildlife and forestry, with both Dr Mike Pelton, the foremost bear biologist in the world, and Dr Jim Byford, a nationally known wildlife biologist, on his committee. Dr Houston has more than 100 peer reviewed publications in wildlife and forestry, along with several hundred other publications and local/regional/national presentations across a wide range of wildlife/forestry/ecological issues. While he would be the very first to tell you he needs to know more about CWD and the Ames' herd, his qualifications do bring a bit more to the table than the moniker "forestry specialist" might tend to infer. CWD, its epidemiology, the herd, and the land are indeed an ecological system. At the moment, given his experience and expertise, he is attempting to bring together the interdisciplinary efforts needed at Ames, and by extension SW Tennessee and regionally, to initiate enduring CWD research prior to his retirement. Or, as he would say (and has said), "get people on this thing who are smarter than me." Once he leaves those efforts will, at least in some fashion, be likely to change.

 

[Lost Lake]

Lost Lake & Snake,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm definitely still around, and not going anywhere anytime soon. I have not hunted Ames since 2018. I poured 15 years of my life into scouting and hunting there, had some great hunts, killed some nice mature bucks, made MANY great memories and made A LOT of friends for life. Now I stay plugged into Ames through constant communication with current members and neighboring landowners. Like so many of you, my life has become busier than ever with new job opportunities and a growing family. I still squirrel, turkey and deer hunt a fair amount and I still log into TnDeer weekly, and most weeks, daily.

Worth mentioning is the buck in my avatar is one of the last few mature bucks I killed at Ames. Ames staff aged him at 4.5+ by TR&W, I aged him at 5.5+ by TR&W, and a forensic aging lab concluded 6.5 using Cementum Annuli method. Most likely the oldest wild fair chase buck I will ever kill in SW TN.

Glad you're doing well Andy, and still hunting. Good to hear from you!

 

[Antler Daddy]

Regarding Easy45's post of Dr Houston as a "forestry specialist," I thought I might chime in because I am familiar with those circumstances; and, too, they are a matter of record at UT's Department of Forestry, Wildlife and Fisheries, where he is a Professor of forest/wildlife Ecology. Dr Houston has a BS in Wildlife and another BS in Forestry. His Masters is in Forest Management with a minor in Wildlife. His PhD is in Ecology, and evenly divided between wildlife and forestry, with both Dr Mike Pelton, the foremost bear biologist in the world, and Dr Jim Byford, a nationally known wildlife biologist, on his committee. Dr Houston has more than 100 peer reviewed publications in wildlife and forestry, along with several hundred other publications and local/regional/national presentations across a wide range of wildlife/forestry/ecological issues. While he would be the very first to tell you he needs to know more about CWD and the Ames' herd, his qualifications do bring a bit more to the table than the moniker "forestry specialist" might tend to infer. CWD, its epidemiology, the herd, and the land are indeed an ecological system. At the moment, given his experience and expertise, he is attempting to bring together the interdisciplinary efforts needed at Ames, and by extension SW Tennessee and regionally, to initiate enduring CWD research prior to his retirement. Or, as he would say (and has said), "get people on this thing who are smarter than me." Once he leaves those efforts will, at least in some fashion, be likely to change.I never

Regarding Easy45's post of Dr Houston as a "forestry specialist," I thought I might chime in because I am familiar with those circumstances; and, too, they are a matter of record at UT's Department of Forestry, Wildlife and Fisheries, where he is a Professor of forest/wildlife Ecology. Dr Houston has a BS in Wildlife and another BS in Forestry. His Masters is in Forest Management with a minor in Wildlife. His PhD is in Ecology, and evenly divided between wildlife and forestry, with both Dr Mike Pelton, the foremost bear biologist in the world, and Dr Jim Byford, a nationally known wildlife biologist, on his committee. Dr Houston has more than 100 peer reviewed publications in wildlife and forestry, along with several hundred other publications and local/regional/national presentations across a wide range of wildlife/forestry/ecological issues. While he would be the very first to tell you he needs to know more about CWD and the Ames' herd, his qualifications do bring a bit more to the table than the moniker "forestry specialist" might tend to infer. CWD, its epidemiology, the herd, and the land are indeed an ecological system. At the moment, given his experience and expertise, he is attempting to bring together the interdisciplinary efforts needed at Ames, and by extension SW Tennessee and regionally, to initiate enduring CWD research prior to his retirement. Or, as he would say (and has said), "get people on this thing who are smarter than me." Once he leaves those efforts will, at least in some fashion, be likely to change.

Interesting....I never really considered the research opportunity for CWD at Ames.

 

[easy45]

Regarding Easy45's post of Dr Houston as a "forestry specialist," I thought I might chime in because I am familiar with those circumstances; and, too, they are a matter of record at UT's Department of Forestry, Wildlife and Fisheries, where he is a Professor of forest/wildlife Ecology. Dr Houston has a BS in Wildlife and another BS in Forestry. His Masters is in Forest Management with a minor in Wildlife. His PhD is in Ecology, and evenly divided between wildlife and forestry, with both Dr Mike Pelton, the foremost bear biologist in the world, and Dr Jim Byford, a nationally known wildlife biologist, on his committee. Dr Houston has more than 100 peer reviewed publications in wildlife and forestry, along with several hundred other publications and local/regional/national presentations across a wide range of wildlife/forestry/ecological issues. While he would be the very first to tell you he needs to know more about CWD and the Ames' herd, his qualifications do bring a bit more to the table than the moniker "forestry specialist" might tend to infer. CWD, its epidemiology, the herd, and the land are indeed an ecological system. At the moment, given his experience and expertise, he is attempting to bring together the interdisciplinary efforts needed at Ames, and by extension SW Tennessee and regionally, to initiate enduring CWD research prior to his retirement. Or, as he would say (and has said), "get people on this thing who are smarter than me." Once he leaves those efforts will, at least in some fashion, be likely to change.

Ok, I'll follow up on your post, Dr. Houston is a very intelligent man, near genius level. I can not dispute that, but his management of the deer herd on Ames has caused what can only be called a decimation of the herd. He jumped on the kill more does have bigger buck train when the club first started but instead changing his management as the situation called for it, he kept pushing the killing of does in very high numbers. That led to a huge population dip, not cwd. As far as the buck situation, I realize that when you are managing a club of that size with upwards of 100 members in the past, there are very few ways to ensure the age structure and quality of the bucks could remain what they were when the club started. This area produced several 150" deer every season and deer in the 130-140" class were common. But, here is where the problem starts, by enacting basically antler restrictions, the buck had to be 120" or be 4.5 years old and it was later moved to 125", this led to high grading by the members. They started to wipe out the genetics in the area by killing every buck in the area that might make the minimum score. This has led to a spike in lower genetics. Now, a 120" buck is considered a good deer in the area and if you are able to a 130" or better you have really done something. Dr. Houston may have all the degrees and might be able to write very intelligent and well thought papers but managing a whitetail deer herd went well over his head, the proof is there to be seen.

 

[easy45]

Six years ago, everything Ames had done for QDM was running on all cylinders. Members were killing 30-35 bucks over 125 or 4.5 years old and that year 2014 they killed 10 bucks over 140. Then things started leveling out and by 2017, things were declining but no one knew why. Once CWD was discovered, Ames took action to determine how much was there and it turned out quite a lot. By the next season, they cut back on the doe goals and lowered buck minimum score requirements. This year management decided they could sit back and watch or try to do something. One thing that's unique about Ames is the 20 years of data on the deer herd and the fact that they are a research facility. This year we are collecting poop and hair samples on all harvested deer for DNA research. This could tell us information on CWD not known before. We know the location of deer harvested too to try and make any connections between fecal samples and CWD.
Instead of running Ames down with arm chair quarter backing, deer hunters everywhere should appreciate what Ames is trying to accomplish.

Sorry, like I said, over 20 years I have seen the devastation caused by the management of Ames. They cut back on the doe goals because hunters were complaining of not seeing any deer. CWD can't touch what Ames did to that area, and you are one of the few that still either refuse to see that or just still put stock into everything they do. I'm pretty plugged in to quite a few members and they are not happy with the way things have gone, that's the reason the doe harvest was dropped this year before a second buck could be killed. Hunters weren't seeing does so they couldn't qualify for their second buck. Many have had trouble activating their first buck tag because they can't find one doe to kill. That sort of things happen when a place absolutely slaughters the doe population for that long.

 

[Snake]

Glad you're doing well Andy, and still hunting. Good to hear from you!

Exactly.

 

[fairchaser]

Sorry, like I said, over 20 years I have seen the devastation caused by the management of Ames. They cut back on the doe goals because hunters were complaining of not seeing any deer. CWD can't touch what Ames did to that area, and you are one of the few that still either refuse to see that or just still put stock into everything they do. I'm pretty plugged in to quite a few members and they are not happy with the way things have gone, that's the reason the doe harvest was dropped this year before a second buck could be killed. Hunters weren't seeing does so they couldn't qualify for their second buck. Many have had trouble activating their first buck tag because they can't find one doe to kill. That sort of things happen when a place absolutely slaughters the doe population for that long.

I've never agreed totally with everything management has done. The deer club has always been managed under the constraints of the farmers, field trialers and loggers. Naturally, when you're 3rd or 4th down on the priority list, you're not going to be happy with some choices. I've seen the decline in the herd and also struggled to even see a doe. Am I happy with the club? Absolutely not! But, I support them 100% because I understand what they are dealing with and can appreciate the impossible mission they face. They must answer to a board of trustees as well as try to please club members with rampant CWD in the middle of a pandemic and economic recession. I believe management has made some mistakes but I also believe without CWD, we wouldn't even be that worried about the deer herd and lack of doe sightings. JMO

 

[BigAl]

When CWD was first discovered in TN, especially in the Ames area, I knew right away the research of Ames might be helpful. Also thought the Zoo hunting club nearby could be a big help, as its high fenced and in the same area. I'm sure we'll never hear much about the zoo since its private. I would be interested to know if CWD got behind the fence, how its affected the herd there. I know they "hammered" the does pretty hard but it didn't seem to decimate the herd. Anyone on here have any insight on the Zoo?

 

[fairchaser]

When CWD was first discovered in TN, especially in the Ames area, I knew right away the research of Ames might be helpful. Also thought the Zoo hunting club nearby could be a big help, as its high fenced and in the same area. I'm sure we'll never hear much about the zoo since its private. I would be interested to know if CWD got behind the fence, how its affected the herd there. I know they "hammered" the does pretty hard but it didn't seem to decimate the herd. Anyone on here have any insight on the Zoo?

I don't know anything about the Zoo but I do know it would be near impossible to keep CWD from entering or exiting any high fence in this area. Deer touch noses through fences and trees are continually falling on fences. Unless there are double fences some yards apart, there eventually will be transfer.

 

[BigAl]

I don't know anything about the Zoo but I do know it would be near impossible to keep CWD from entering or exiting any high fence in this area. Deer touch noses through fences and trees are continually falling on fences. Unless there are double fences some yards apart, there eventually will be transfer.

I agree. Just wondering if they've had positive tests and what impact its had.