Accuracy issues with my Traditions Vortex Striker Fire

[Devin2009]

I'm very confused as to what the issue is, last year the gun shot perfect. This year I got out today and shot it and it was all over the place. I was shooting blackhorn 209 at 120 grains with a 250 grain Barnes Tez. I kept getting hang fires with the black horn so I switched to 777 pellets at 150 grains and a 250 grain Hornaday Sst it was much more consistent but still not no where near as good as it was last year. I'm baffled at the change just over a summer. It was new last year, I killed a coyote at 125 yards perfect shot. I did shoot at doe at about 40 yards the last day of muzzleloader season last year, after that I cleaned up and put it up until today.
Anyone else ever have these kind or issues? I'm unsure what to do next. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to how my guns shoot and it's got me worried.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I've had more trouble with mine than any ML
I've ever had. I've been ready to throw it in the lake several times. I could not get BH209 to shoot in mine with many bullets and many charges. I ended up settling with 777 and 250 gr Barnes MZ's(which seem to be out of stock everywhere now). That combo shoots ok in mine but I had to go with Harvester Crush Rib sabots also. The Bores are extremely tight on those ML's, harvester crush ribs make a huge difference. The bores are also really bad to rust up even with religious cleaning that any other ML would be great with.


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[Devin2009]

I have noticed that the bore is way tight. The sst bullets seem to load easier than any other bullet. I ran out of daylight this evening but it's way better than it has been. Its about 4 inches right dead on up and down at 100 yards. I think with some adjustments to my scope its gonna be good. The last 2 shots was touching at least. I love how the gun feels and the balance of it. It worries me how crazy it shoots tho.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I love how they balance and the trigger is amazing. Let me know what you get worked out please. I spent a small fortune getting to where I am with mine now. You'll thank me if you get some Harvester Crush Rib sabots. Just read online, there are MANY people that have had these same issue with the Vortek.


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[muddyboots]

If it shot good last year and you are shooting same load your scope has died. Ml are extremely hard on scopes. I've had this happen more than once.

 

[muddyboots]

And I'd recommend dropping powder way down. That's a lot.

 

[muddyboots]

No telling how many people call me to help them sight in there muzzleloader as I have spent a lot of time and money getting mine too shoot perfect. It's usually one of two things. Bad scope or too much powder. 150 grains sounds good on tv but they sell powder. It's not good for accuracy in my experience. I shoot 90 grains 777 loose and Barnes Mz bullets. They touch at 100 yards. I also got a Barnes loading jag. That helped tighten my groups also.

 

[ImThere]

I know the Pursuit isn't the same gun but mine likes the Hornady with the red sabots better than any other.
Is your powder new or old? Primers new or old?


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[Devin2009]

Thanks for all the help first off!

I thought the powder might be the issue so I opened a new jug, I came into about 3 jugs of bh209 on clearance last year.
I'm gonna try the harvester crush rib sabots and see, funny you said that as I thought about that myself before I even asked. I'll keep you posted on what I come up with whenever I get a chance to shoot it again.
I will back down on the powder as well, I just shot the 150 grains and sst as it was already made up for my Tc omega that is lights out with that load. I did back down too 100 grains of bh 209 but still had the hang fires. I'm confident that is the reason for the crazy spread out shots.
I dont think it's the scope due to the first 2 shots was touching high and right by about 4 inches, I adjusted the scope and got it dead on just still to the right, I would have kept shooting to get it dead on but it got dark.
To clear up some confusion about the earlier posts I meant that I shot the same combo last year but never did have any kind of hang fires at all. I also read up when I got done and apparently I'm not the only one who has had those issues with the traditions vortex guns. I was somewhat wondering if how the breech plug is designed with the long flash channel and flat end could he causing the issues. My Tc omega has a bowel type breech plug to have the powder closer to the primer.
I also am shooting cci 209 magnum primers so I know they are plenty hot enough to set the load off quickly.

I'm gonna stay after it and hopefully get it right if not I always got my Tc omega that I know is on and will get the job done. It is just heavier and alot more front heavy compared to my Traditions.

 

[Jcalder]

Clean the flame channel out of your breech plug. 1/8" drill bit should be close but I'm sure you can find which one it needs. You'll need to clean the carbon out every 6 shots or so. Don't know what primers you're using but do not use ML primers with blackhorn. Use a cci209A if you can find them.


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[MUP]

Clean the flame channel out of your breech plug. 1/8" drill bit should be close but I'm sure you can find which one it needs. You'll need to clean the carbon out every 6 shots or so. Don't know what primers you're using but do not use ML primers with blackhorn. Use a cci209A if you can find them.


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I agree, especially if you're having hangfires. That sounds like an ignition issue, and a dirty BP could be the culprit.

 

[ImThere]

I forgot to add My gun settled in at 90 grains bh209 if that helps


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[GMB54]

9 times out of 10 when i hear about hang fires in known good plugs its carbon build up in the flash channel and the owner has never cleaned it with a drill bit. Some are simply using the ML 209s that are far too weak to ignite BH209 reliably.

This info is right on the Blackhorn209 website. Not sure why so many miss it if they can ask on the forums. https://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/bree ... -cleaning/

Traditions breach plugs are marginal for BH209 but not terrible. They should be kept clean and a mag primer is a good idea. The other option is send your plug to Badger Ridge for a upgrade to a vent liner. The mod includes increasing the flash channel to 5/32 and making the channel a little shorter. He is a bit over priced for the work but it makes a marginal plug much better.

 

[Devin2009]

I am using Cci209 magnum primers, I and gonna use another pack and see if that could be the cause. I do take a drill bit and clean out the flash channel every time I clean it. I even keep the drill bit with my cleaning stuff. I have some Federal 209a primers I reload my shot shells with I'm gonna try and see if they helps. If the rain stops today I hope to find some answers.

 

[Devin2009]

I got it figured out! Bh 209 was still hang firing after switching primers deep cleaning the breech plug and backing off on the charge volume. So I switched to 3 50 grain 777 pellets and used a Barnes 250 grain tez bullet. I had to adjust my scope just a little bit to get perfect where I wanted it. The last 2 shots are the 2 close together about 2 inches high. I was shooting 100 yards so I'm pleased with the performance of this combo.

Thanks to everyone's input and suggestions!

 

[muddyboots]

That will work.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I keep wanting to get BH209 to work in mine but I couldn't get it either and switched to 777. Glad to hear you have a solution.


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[GMB54]

So your solution was to use a load that exceeds Traditions load data?
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/...ek StrikerFire Manual FIT-58 7-13 (Final).pdf

Im stumped as to why yours is having problems with BH209 if the plug is clean and you used a mag primer. Unless you have a really loose bore which would be uncommon for a Traditions...The TEZ sabot should be tight enough. If it worked before what has changed? Something in the equation is missing.

 

[Omega]

So your solution was to use a load that exceeds Traditions load data?
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/...ek StrikerFire Manual FIT-58 7-13 (Final).pdf

Im stumped as to why yours is having problems with BH209 if the plug is clean and you used a mag primer. Unless you have a really loose bore which would be uncommon for a Traditions...The TEZ sabot should be tight enough. If it worked before what has changed? Something in the equation is missing.

150 grains is max, but within specs. Some rifles like what they like, even if we feel different.

 

[GMB54]

No its not within max. Traditions 150gr max is for real black only. Says so right in the manual. A 3 pellet load makes far more peak pressure than even 120grV of BH209 or 150gr of real black.

 

[iowavf]

No its not within max. Traditions 150gr max is for real black only. Says so right in the manual. A 3 pellet load makes far more peak pressure than even 120grV of BH209 or 150gr of real black.

Ok look down the list of BH about 3/4 down where it says 120gr of BH, that's equal to 150gr of 777 pellets, not loose, but 3 777 pellets.

 

[Omega]

There has been in a bunch of discussions about "max" loads, and how mfgs write that. The red warning does not specify which type of powder, real black or subs, though the load data never recommends above 100 grs., of anything. But some, specially out west are using 150 grains with the barnes for elk and blacktails. I don't go above 100 myself, not only because I don't think my shoulder can take it, but because I have found that 100 grains gives me pretty good accuracy at 100 yds, and I never need to shoot beyond that. I have only tried 90 grains in BH209, and 100 in 777, so don't know how stout a 150 grain shot would be in those, but have used pyrodex and goex at 150 grains some time back.

 

[GMB54]

NEVER EXCEED in red is perfectly clear and Hodgdon has never listed a max load over 100gr for 45cal or 50cal. Not sure how that is hard to understand. The Strikefire has a very light contour barrel.

No where in that manual is there an approved load for 150gr of ANY sub, only real black powder.

 

[GMB54]

No its not within max. Traditions 150gr max is for real black only. Says so right in the manual. A 3 pellet load makes far more peak pressure than even 120grV of BH209 or 150gr of real black.

Ok look down the list of BH about 3/4 down where it says 120gr of BH, that's equal to 150gr of 777 pellets, not loose, but 3 777 pellets.

Please tell me how that is equal in pressure...i would love to hear it and see the proof. The fact is 3 pellets easily makes 30kpsi or more in a 50cal with a sabot. You wont make that much peak with 120gr of BH209 even with a 350gr bullet in a sabotless 45cal. Peak in a 50cal with a sabot will be quite a bit less.

350gr in a Swinglock full formed

 

[iowavf]

Read up on Black Horn and loose 777 because they are both about 20% hotter than what the 777 50gr pellets are made from. The 777 star pellets seem to be pretty equal when comparing to loose 777 or BH, but they also weigh less than a regular 777 pellet. 120 gr of BH has more velocity and energy versus 3 777 pellets.

 

[GMB54]

3 Firestars weigh 12gr more than 2 Triple7 pellets so yes its gunna make more speed. Same composition just a new shape. 3 Firestars is the new approved load by Hodgdon. You could spend a bit less and run 2 T7 Mag pellets. That is also an approved load by Hodgdon and therefore within the max in the manual. Traditions took the high road by putting that burden on the powder manufactures.

BH209 makes similar speed but it makes less peak pressure than 3 T7 pellets. Just like i could use N110 vs 4759 to get similar speed but the N110 will make a higher peak using less powder by weight. Ive shot a heckuva lot of BH209 so when i hear "it worked then but not now".....Something aint right. There is another problem that has been missed or something changed. BH209 dont go bad when stored properly. Its a nitrate ester based powder similar to smokeless.

 

[Devin2009]

So your solution was to use a load that exceeds Traditions load data?
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/...ek StrikerFire Manual FIT-58 7-13 (Final).pdf

Im stumped as to why yours is having problems with BH209 if the plug is clean and you used a mag primer. Unless you have a really loose bore which would be uncommon for a Traditions...The TEZ sabot should be tight enough. If it worked before what has changed? Something in the equation is missing.

The more I've studied than thought about my issue, I'm came to the conclusion that the breech plug is not made to effectively use bh209. The plug has a flat surface on the back while most bh209 capable plugs have a bowl type indention.
The bore is far from being loose.
I am still puzzled why it worked last year when the gun was new. Since I've switched to pellets the gun is shooting perfect with ZERO hang fires unlike when I was using bh209 4 out of 5 shots was a pop booom.

My question is, if I am overloading the gun by shooting 3 777 pellets, why is most everyone else shooting the same load? I want the most velocity as possible and the extra range while being effective and accurate like I've achieved with this load. Most shots I will have should be within 100 yards but I do have a couple places where I could shoot 200 or so yards and I want to be able to do so, being I paid as much money for a gun that is supposed to be capable of it. If I was just wanting to limit myself to 100 yards or less my old Knight American would be perfect.

 

[GMB54]

I would not be concerned about if others are shooting it. I would be concerned about if Traditions approves of the load. Its not hard for a 3 pellet load to climb to 35kpsi+ if pellets get crushed while loading. You can get close to the same speed from 120gr of loose Triple7 and at one time Traditions did approve that load but in heavier contour models like the older Pursuit.

Newer models are not rated the same as the older ones. That is likely why people are overloading the new ones. Calling and asking Traditions should be simple and get it in an email too if they say its ok. 150gr of real black is not the same as 150gr of a sub. Just like 50gr of 4198 is not the same as 50gr of N120.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Do you think the o ring gasket on the breech plug would have anything to do with it? Mine was in terrible shape after very few shots. I replaced it.


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[GMB54]

Possibly, lots of guys use the O-ring in the primer pocket to help seal the primer. The problem as i see it is Traditions uses an alloy frame with no steel firing pin bushing. The frame wears in that area. Ive seen it. Making a primer tight against the alloy frame just speeds up that wear and tear. The factory o-ring on the other end shouldn't be a major factor other than more fouling in the threads...You can probably buy new o-rings for the powder side cheap at most good hardware stores.

CVAs on the other hand have a steel bushing in the alloy frame. The primer hardly phases it. Some of the newest Traditions have a bushing/plate for the firing pin but im not sure what its made of.

The Traditions plug is certainly not ideal for BH209 but the majority of posters on MML seem to have no issues igniting it.. A small mod to the plug should make it much better. Ron on Modern Muzzle Loader forum was doing the mod for about $20 or so. He did many older and OEM CVA plugs.