2nd rut stuff

[Okatoba]

It's about 28 days from the peek of the chasing in November around here so gonna hunt all day this weekend but I wonder how many does really were not bred and come back in? Like what percentage? 20%? 10%? 5% not bred? Would it make sense that the chasing and buck sighting because rut would be only the same percentage as the amount of does still unbred?

Say 10% of the does haven't been bred yet and come back in,will the 2nd rut be only 10% of the 1st rut in November?

Iv'e really only seen( or make that heard) a buck hard after a doe at this time of year 1 time when I was standing on the front deck of the house on Christmas eve in like 2000 or 2001 and heard a buck chase a doe out of the woods and across the front yard,grunting and really running hard. I could see them a little with the porch light , he chased her down in the woods on the other side and I waited around a while but didn't hear them circle back. It was about 11:00 pm and real cold.

I wonder how hard the bucks will really get on their feet and try to find does this time around?

 

[Hunt 365]

I killed a good buck chasing last year around December 15. Mature does and smaller does were in heat, or at least exhibiting chasing behavior (zigzagging etc.) I've been told that the yearling does come in later. All I can say is some of the does get hot again, because I've seen it. Scrapes on my property though, haven't been freshened up in a few days. Bucks are on trail cams, so in the area, but aren't scraping. My observations, for what they're worth

 

[Okatoba]

365, You in west Tn? Did y'alls chasing and stuff start about late in the first week of November and go till about the 20th like it did here in Trousdale Co.? Is the rut later down there?

 

[kc4sox]

Look at the thread I posted in this forum. I was in Cades Cove yesterday and I witnessed several mature bucks "Locked Down" with hot does. Also many younger bucks up on their feet and cruising around nose down obviously trailing does. This is the second year in a row that they have been breeding this week up there. FWIW

 

[Bulldog25]

Hoping something happens soon. Would love to see some cruising or chasing. Would like to get one of the big guys I had on camera.

 

[wsm]

Seen a good buck with two does today,of course I was working out in the country.

 

[BSK]

Excellent question Okatoba.

I think a very low percentage of does come into estrus in the 2nd and 3rd cycle. In fact, I suspect the only ones that do come into estrus on a 2nd or 3rd cycle are those that are incapable biologically of conceiving. In essence, a small percentage of does are able to go through the estrus cycles, but not conceive, hence they cycle into estrus every 28-30 days over and over again, yet never conceive, even though they are bred each estrus cycle.

And I say all that because I've looked at a lot of fetal conception date data, and only very rarely have I ever seen a secondary peak in conceptions, even though hunter observations and trail-camera data from the area clearly shows a second and even sometimes a tertiary peak in rutting activity. So if these secondary and tertiary ruts are occurring, yet no conceptions result, what is going on? I suspect it is the approximate 5% of does that never conceive that keep cycling back in.

 

[Biggun4214]

Several years ago we collected fetuses from road kill in Region 4 and there was several deer collected that were bred in January and Feburary. I think there were some bred even in March. I have seen does killed in East Tennessee in October that were pregnant. Part of this may have been due to high doe to buck ratios and the number of yearling bucks becoming sexually mature by late season.

 

[BSK]

Several years ago we collected fetuses from road kill in Region 4 and there was several deer collected that were bred in January and Feburary. I think there were some bred even in March. I have seen does killed in East Tennessee in October that were pregnant. Part of this may have been due to high doe to buck ratios and the number of yearling bucks becoming sexually mature by late season.

I've certainly seen plenty of example of very late conceptions, especially in unhealthy herds (the longest breeding season we ever documented occurred over a 110 day period). But what I rarely see is a sudden "surge" or secondary peak in conceptions 28-30 days after the primary peak. In a "trickle rut," you normally see just a strung out series of conceptions dates, without any discernible peak dates.

 

[woodsman87]

I have never observed or seen a second rut, although I do believe it happens.

I know of this neighborhood that is over populated with deer. Used to in this area, first two weeks of December was chasing phase.

Now we so no chasing at all. There are fawns with very faded spots. The fawns probably only weigh 30-40 pounds.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Tapatalk

 

[BSK]

Even on my place, with a sex ratio favoring bucks, and a deer density well below capacity (healthy herd), we see a fairly obvious second rut on trail camera--a sudden surge of bucks hitting scrapes again real hard, and usually some rare pictures of mature bucks working scrapes in daylight. We also often see a pronounce "false rut" 28-30 days prior to peak breeding. But fawns actually being conceived during these two secondary periods? Nope. Again, I believe much of the 2nd and even 3rd rut is due to does who cannot conceive but are still able to enter estrus, cycling over and over.

 

[weatherby man]

So in your opinion is the second rut inevitable? Is it health?. 2 years ago I had 5 mature bucks on camera on a regular basis and 2 I know of were shot. The others are unaccounted for. Had their picture a lot in the latter part of the season trailing does. This year I have only 2 8's and a 9 that are 3 year old. Just found a new buck but nothing worth shooting. None of these bucks are the top dog but I am not seeing other mature bucks like I was 2-3 years ago. Is there a problem here potentially?

 

[Mike Belt]

Don't young does possibly entering into estrus their first time account for quite a bit of the late rutting?

 

[BSK]

Don't young does possibly entering into estrus their first time account for quite a bit of the late rutting?

Late breeding, and the 2nd rut, are potentially two completely different things. The "secondary rut," in theory, is does not bred the first estrus cycle coming into estrus on their second cycle. I don't believe this happens much, except for does that are incapable of conceiving (they were bred the first cycle, but they can't conceive). These does will cycle back into estrus every month all the way into spring.

On the other hand, scattered late breeding can be both a good sign or a bad sign. Female fawns will enter estrus if they reach a particular body size during their first fall/winter. This often occurs late, as in January or February. So a little late breeding of female fawns would be a sign of exceptional herd health. In the fantastic habitat of the Midwest, up to 80% of female fawns reach the body size (sexual maturity) necessary to enter estrus and be successfully bred. In the best habitat areas of TN, it is probably around 30% of female fawns successfully breeding. In the poorest TN habitat, female fawns breeding is exceptionally rare. However, late breeding can also be the sign of very poor herd health. Healthy does will enter estrus before unhealthy does in the same area. Malnutrition delays estrus. So in a nutritionally stressed deer population, late and strung out breeding is often observed; i.e. the famous "trickle rut."

If late breeding is observed, further investigation is necessary to understand what is going on. If all indications of herd health are good (body weights, browse pressure, etc.), then some late breeding is nothing to worry about. It's the sign of advance health in fawns. But of indicators of herd health are low, late breeding is a symptom of that, and one more problem associated with poor health.

 

[BSK]

So in your opinion is the second rut inevitable? Is it health?

Bucks displaying a surge of rut-like behavior a month after peak breeding is probably inevitable, as some does simply aren't able to conceive, just like some human women are unable to conceive. I wouldn't say it is healthy--because it puts additional rut stress on bucks--but there's nothing that can be done about it.

 

[Fleet Fox]

The last few years on my farm the breeding has been strung out over 4-6 weeks. At any point during Nov. and the first of Dec. I would witness bucks cruising across the fields into the does bedding areas at all times of the day. This year it was over (visually) within a 2 week period. I have seen no rut activity since the 2nd week of muzzleloader. 17 does were grouped up in one of my fields on Monday and there wasn't a buck in sight.

 

[BSK]

One caveat to all this, for those hunting in extreme southern TN, especially along the AL and MS state lines. It's distinctly possible to have does in the area with two very different genetically driven estrus timings. Both northern AL and MS have peak breeding dates in January or even later, while much of southern Middle TN has late November peak breeding dates. I've worked with properties near the southern border of TN that appear to see both estrus timings on their property. They see a distinct peak of rutting activity the last week of November, and then again in early to mid-January. This is just a mixing of local female genetics, and not the sign of significant "late breeding."

 

[BSK]

The last few years on my farm the breeding has been strung out over 4-6 weeks. At any point during Nov. and the first of Dec. I would witness bucks cruising across the fields into the does bedding areas at all times of the day. This year it was over (visually) within a 2 week period. I have seen no rut activity since the 2nd week of muzzleloader. 17 does were grouped up in one of my fields on Monday and there wasn't a buck in sight.

It never ceases to amaze me how different the rut can appear to use hunters from year to year. It is not at all uncommon to see dramatically different OBSERVED peaks in daylight rutting activity, even though fetal conception date analysis clearly shows peak breeding is occurring the exact same time from year to year.

But also remember, "the rut" actually does occur over a 5-6 week window, even in populations that are very healthy and balanced. However, what most of us hunters refer to as "the rut" is the flurry of activity that occurs around the 10-14 day peak of breeding, which occurs at the front end of the whole process.