2011 Post Season Survey

BHC · Jun 13, 2012

Based on the unique bucks identified and their age structure, we have approx. 227 deer, 105.6 bucks and 122.21 does within the area of the report( this should be thought of as a minimum, I would estimate at least 250 deer). This analysis is based off a target buck to doe ratio of1:1. But we should harvest 16 does + 1 doe for every buck that we take. For example if we kill 10 bucks then we should kill 26 does to try and achieve a 1:1 buck to doe ratio. This report was done across 3300 acres on 33 different food plots

Deer density: 14 acres/deer, 31 acres/buck, 27 acres/doe

Buck to Doe ratio: 0.86 bucks: 1 doe

Fawn recruitment: 57%

Buck Age Sturucture: 1.5 yr old = 60%

2.5 yrold = 22%

3.5 yrold = 10%

4.5+ yrold = 7%

Keep in mind the age structure percentages are somewhat skewed toward younger deer, as the survey was done on food plots. Many of the Mature deer photographed over course of 2011 were not photographed in the post season survey...

Let me know what you think? What seems accurate to you and what doesnt...

BSK · Jun 14, 2012

Is that data from a camera survey?

1.2 does per buck is about as close to a natural adult sex ratio as you can get. With that ratio, I'm not sure I would be targeting does any more than bucks.

Buck age structure is pretty good--getting close to what I would consider "very good"--50% 1 1/2, 25% 2 1/2, 15% 3 1/2, 10% 4 1/2+.

Fawn recruitment is below optimal, but that may be due to the difficulty of separating fawns from does that late in the year.

tellico4x4 · Jun 14, 2012

BSK said:
Is that data from a camera survey?

Yes, the camera survey was conducted in late Jan & early Feb this year.

BSK said:
1.2 does per buck is about as close to a natural adult sex ratio as you can get. With that ratio, I'm not sure I would be targeting does any more than bucks.

There is 5,000+ acres adjacent to us that cannot be hunted by anyone. With that big of a "doe sink", could we ever really kill too many does?

Also, we have killed 157 does & 67 bucks in the past 7 season's, which is just a hair over a 2:1 kill ratio.

BSK · Jun 14, 2012

tellico4x4 said:
BSK said:

1.2 does per buck is about as close to a natural adult sex ratio as you can get. With that ratio, I'm not sure I would be targeting does any more than bucks.

Click to expand...

There is 5,000+ acres adjacent to us that cannot be hunted by anyone. With that big of a "doe sink", could we ever really kill too many does?

Kill too many? Probably not. Shoot at them enough to drive them nocturnal, hence negatively effect hunter sightings and enjoyment? Yup. Seen it happen. Hunters will claim they don't care about total deer sightings, just buck sightings. That is until they stop seeing does. Then they realize relatively high deer sightings are "part of an enjoyable hunting experience."

Andy S. · Jun 14, 2012

BSK said:
Kill too many? Probably not. Shoot at them enough to drive them nocturnal, hence negatively effect hunter sightings and enjoyment? Yup. Seen it happen. Hunters will claim they don't care about total deer sightings, just buck sightings. That is until they stop seeing does. Then they realize relatively high deer sightings are "part of an enjoyable hunting experience."

SOOOO True. I have lived it and I have seen several of my hunting buds do a complete 180 from "lets kill the h%ll out of every doe we see" to "holysh&t, where'd they go, let's not shoot another one". You have to find the balance in there as Bryan has stated.

tellico4x4 · Jun 14, 2012

Good point guys, we actually have seen that as well.
In 2005, 2006 & 2007 we worked on them pretty hard and killed 110 does those 3 years.
In 2008, we backed off of them due to the EHD outbreak and only killed 4 that year.
2009, 2010 & 2011 accounted for 43 does.

BHC · Jun 15, 2012

Thanks for the input guys, this is the first trail cam survey I've done, it was a very fun and educational task for me...after reading over what everyone else has said, where is that balance? Based on my numbers 16 more does than buck would try and achieve a 1:1, but then as BSK stated 1:1.2 is possibly as good or better which is about where we are at... So do you jus make sure we kill as many does as bucks, or kill 16 more does than buck and make sure they are spread out across property?

BSK · Jun 15, 2012

BHC,

Because bucks have shorter life spans on average, and naturally higher mortality rates when they are young, a naturally structured herd will have an adult sex ratio of 1.2 to 1.3 adult does per buck. If your herd is already naturally structured, I would simply assure you kill as many does as bucks (although a few more does than bucks is not a problem, again because young bucks experience high natural mortality).

You can push the adult sex ratio to 1:1 or even beyond that, but honestly, most hunters won't like the results. Yes, bucks are more active during daylight under those circumstances, especially around therut, but total deer sightings usually fall dramatically (does go nocturnal). That won't make hunters happy.

Boll Weevil · Jun 15, 2012

Thanks for sharing your data BHC; very good stuff. A question for you:
What changes have you noticed over the course of those 7 seasons with hunter-observed rutting activity, recorded body weights, or antler characteristics?

BHC · Jun 16, 2012

Tellico can answer better than I as I've only been around for the last five seasons. In my experience the rutting activity there is much better than anywhere else I've hunted, but my hunting career is much shorter than many of you guys as I'm only 22. I've only ever hunted Alabama and Tn also. I've seen a buck fight w three bucks involved, bucks tending does, my cousin watched a buck mount a doe I've rattled a few in and grunted a few in. Those are things that I had never experienced other places, only an occasional chase and grunting one in a couple times. But in my five seasons there it seems to get better every season... As far as rutting activity such as I described goes. But as tellico said the does are still very weary even though our doe harvest numbers have been lower the last few seasons. They know when our season ends slso. You'll rarely have more than 2 or 3 does feeding in a field at a time and truthfully I rarely see that, but with in a week of season close I get pics of 5-8 does feeding in fields at a time in daylight. I generally see maybe 5 more does than bucks/ yr... I think I saw 3 chases this past season and one buck fight.

BHC · Jun 16, 2012

Boll Weevil said:
Thanks for sharing your data BHC; very good stuff. A question for you:
antler characteristics?

http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... ail%20Cam/
This is the link to my 2011 trail cam album, I haven't uploaded all deer to photobucket yet but there's quite a few there. It seems as though racks get bigger each yr but we also have gotten more cams and may jus be catchin more big boys now...

BSK · Jun 16, 2012

Boll Weevil,

Having watched quite a few QDM projects over time in TN, I believe the biggest changes hunters can expect to see from altering herd dynamics (sex ratio and buck age structure) are 1) a more tightly timed and intense rut, with more rubs and scrapes, and more daylight chasing (as well as a slightly earlier rut--perhaps 7 to 10 days earlier); and 2) much improved body weights of the younger age-classes of bucks.

When the buck age structure is improved (and sex ratio balanced), yearling bucks participate less in the rut hence don't burn off body weight during the rut. They can then use the following spring's and early summer's food resources to grow larger instead of using those resources to replace lost weight from the previous rut. I've witnessed substantial increases in yearling buck and 2 1/2 year-old buck body weights on properties that have worked on improving herd dynamics without having made any changes to the habitat.

However, I've witnessed only marginal to minimal increases in antler size per age-class just from herd dynamics improvement. It appears, to grow larger antlers, you really have to look to the quality of summer food resources (provide better quality nutrition than what the original habitat was providing). Of course, that's just improvements in antler growth within each age-class. Properties that improve the buck age structure begin seeing larger antlered bucks simply because they are seeing older bucks.

And when it comes to improving summer food resource quality and quantity, another thing to think about is, "What percent of the bucks you will have to hunt in fall are actually summer residents--bucks that would actually benefit from improved summer food resources?" In some situations, few of the bucks using a property during the fall hunting season actually lived on the property during the summer, hence would not have benefitted from the food resources present on the property in summer. As an example, on average, only 1/3 of the bucks I have available to hunt during the fall were actually summer residents. The other 2/3 don't begin using the property until after antler velvet shedding. They spent the summer "somewhere else" and then shift onto my place well after antlers have finished growing, hence these bucks are not "products" of my property's habitat.

Mike Belt · Jun 16, 2012

BSK....You could always volunteer to put in food plots on your surrounding neighbor's properties and then reap the rewards of that other 2/3, lol.

BSK · Jun 16, 2012

Mike Belt said:
BSK....You could always volunteer to put in food plots on your surrounding neighbor's properties and then reap the rewards of that other 2/3, lol.

Right!!! ;)

Honestly, I would love to know how far some of these "seasonal range-shifting" bucks are coming from. Are they bucks that spent the summer just next door, or are some of them coming from miles away? Unfortunately, without GPS collars on the bucks, I have no way of knowing.

Football Hunter · Jun 16, 2012

BSK said:
Mike Belt said:

BSK....You could always volunteer to put in food plots on your surrounding neighbor's properties and then reap the rewards of that other 2/3, lol.

Click to expand...

Right!!! ;)

Honestly, I would love to know how far some of these "seasonal range-shifting" bucks are coming from. Are they bucks that spent the summer just next door, or are some of them coming from miles away? Unfortunately, without GPS collars on the bucks, I have no way of knowing.

I bet they are down in the soybean bottoms in the summer.Dont know where your place is exactly,but cant be too far.

Boll Weevil · Jun 16, 2012

Thanks BHC and BSK for the responses.

A primary goal is to focus resources on the most appropriate improvement areas on my farm to yield the greatest overall benefit. I rotate about 60ac in corn/beans/wheat and it sits smack-dab in the middle of my 600ac, along the creek, in the bottom. While I have a few plots up on the high ground, from a food perspective I think we're in very good shape.

This year I hope to get a better idea of how many bucks are residents vs nomads with part of my longer term plan being to create a place where perhaps they have less reason to wander. Of course by their very nature some will hit road at some point every fall...it's simple biology. But there's much research showing that as bucks age their home range often shrinks dramatically and maybe that's something I can take advantage of.

Modifying age structure as BHC has been able to accomplish could result in more mature bucks staying closer to "home." Of course as we all know, just because they stay in the neighborhood doesn't make them easy to put on the ground.

BSK · Jun 16, 2012

Boll Weevil said:
This year I hope to get a better idea of how many bucks are residents vs nomads...

Critically important information to know.

...with part of my longer term plan being to create a place where perhaps they have less reason to wander.

Creating the habitat that keeps summer residents from leaving is one thing. But attracting new bucks during the season is even more important. You can literally double or triple your buck population during the hunting season if you have the habitat they most want at that time.

But there's much research showing that as bucks age their home range often shrinks dramatically and maybe that's something I can take advantage of.

That's definitely possible, but just remember there can be a big difference between annual home ranges and seasonal home ranges (the seasonal range is a sub-set of the annual range). A buck, even a mature buck, can have a huge annual range. What's important is to draw his fall-season range to your property.

Of course as we all know, just because they stay in the neighborhood doesn't make them easy to put on the ground.

You said a mouthful there! As I tell landowners/managers all the time, "Growing old bucks is easy. Killing them is not."

BHC · Jun 16, 2012

BHC · Jun 16, 2012

Here are the guys that disappeared once the velvet came off...

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... am/Tex.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... ickers.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... Y_0162.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... lBrows.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... y00085.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... m/Knot.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x43 ... m/Axis.jpg

Andy S. · Jun 17, 2012

Some nice bucks in those pics, thanks for sharing.

Boone 58 · Jun 17, 2012

Kill too many? Probably not. Shoot at them enough to drive them nocturnal, hence negatively effect hunter sightings and enjoyment? Yup. Seen it happen. Hunters will claim they don't care about total deer sightings, just buck sightings. That is until they stop seeing does. Then they realize relatively high deer sightings are "part of an enjoyable hunting experience."
[/quote]

Lmbo!!! you are soooooo right BSK! the last line is exacto!!! :D

Boone 58 · Jun 17, 2012

And i have to admit, as long as i see a few......and that is all it takes is a few......i really enjoy going....i do not enjoy 5 trips in a row not seeing anything....but then, i cant remember the last time i went 5x and got skunked.

Boone 58 · Jun 17, 2012

In the 70's i hunted Giles county in an area over 1 mile from the nearest soy bean field......but you could cut the stomach open of any deer during the harvest time in the early season and find beans in the belly. This amazed me!

Boll Weevil · Jun 17, 2012

camoman270 said:
In the 70's i hunted Giles county in an area over 1 mile from the nearest soy bean field.

You're right...I'd say that even 2-3 miles to a preferred food source is a walk in the park for deer. I've found that older bucks oftentimes bed a pretty good ways from ag food sources if they can, and are gone well before the first hint of daylight.

Andy S. · Jun 17, 2012

Boll Weevil said:
You're right...I'd say that even 2-3 miles to a preferred food source is a walk in the park for deer. I've found that older bucks oftentimes bed a pretty good ways from ag food sources if they can, and are gone well before the first hint of daylight.

Yes indeed.

stik · Jun 17, 2012

camoman270 said:
And i have to admit, as long as i see a few......and that is all it takes is a few......i really enjoy going....i do not enjoy 5 trips in a row not seeing anything....but then, i cant remember the last time i went 5x and got skunked.

come over this way and hunt. i don't see deer many more times than i do see deer most years. there have been exceptional years when this was not the case but they are rare.

BSK · Jun 18, 2012

Boll Weevil said:
camoman270 said:

In the 70's i hunted Giles county in an area over 1 mile from the nearest soy bean field.

Click to expand...

You're right...I'd say that even 2-3 miles to a preferred food source is a walk in the park for deer. I've found that older bucks oftentimes bed a pretty good ways from ag food sources if they can, and are gone well before the first hint of daylight.

Deer can and will travel considerable distances at night to feed. But when their location is important--when you can legally hunt them, which is during daylight, during the hunting season--hunter-wary deer will be in or near the best local sanctuary cover.

tellico4x4 · Jun 18, 2012

Boll Weevil said:
Thanks for sharing your data BHC; very good stuff. A question for you:
What changes have you noticed over the course of those 7 seasons with hunter-observed rutting activity, recorded body weights, or antler characteristics?

Definate increase in the hunter observed rutting activity. I personally have seen as many as 8 different bucks cruising thru in one morning. LOTS more scrapes and rubs pop up each year as well.

Average buck live weight has remained constant at 160 lbs, in which I find a bit dissapointing. Pretty much each year, we kill 1 in the 200# range, with the heaviest being 215.

Average doe live weight has increased from 94 lbs to 106, with the heaviest being 158 lbs (doezilla).

Increase in antler width, length & mass has been very good, and has progressed each year. In 2005, the widest buck we killed had a 15" inside spread and 20-1/2" main beams. In 2011 season, the widest killed was 21-1/2" inside, with 23" main beams.

Boll Weevil · Jun 18, 2012

Thanks tellico4x4.

Wonder why the doe weights have increased but bucks remained static...that's interesting. You'd think that as age structure improved weights would go up...if for no other reason than they are simply older deer. Wonder if there's some subspecies limiting factor or something going on there, or if it's food (although from the looks of your club's photos ya'll see to have great food sources).

BHC · Jun 18, 2012

IMO, does as a whole behave very similarly on a particular property. But bucks can vary in that they can be more rut active or less rut active depending on their personal experiences and hormonal drive. Some bucks are more weary of hunters and predators which can impact how much rutting they participate in. I have also read that if a buck takes a bad enough whoopin at a young age while rutting, it can impact his future rut involvement(even for the rest of his life). Also some bucks are producing more testosterone and as a result are more sex driven. Now keeping in mind that the majority of these deer are being harvested during some phase of the rut, this probably has alot to do with weights of those bucks. The bucks that are more rut active on average probably weigh less, the bucks that are less rut active burn less calories and eat more and on average probably weigh more. If you were to weigh all those same deer in August as opposed to mostly Nov. and Dec. you may see a 10lb average weight increase with the bucks as well....

2011 Post Season Survey

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