Habitat Question

[bowhunterfanatic]

This may be somewhat hard to describe without pictures, but I'll try. There are 2 separate ~25 acre sweet gum and softwood thickets on my mom's home place. Essentially both were fields 20ish years ago that quit getting bushhogged unfortunately. It wasn't a big deal for a while as it was thick enough that deer still used both of them frequently. The last couple years both of them have basically quit seeing any daytime activity as they are just a wasteland as far as a deer is concerned. The timber is all junk and most of it isn't big enough to be cut for pulp yet. My brother and I spent half a day in one of them this summer cutting a bunch of stuff down trying to get sunlight to the ground, but what little we did hasn't made a noticeable difference. I'd love to see both of them cleared to the ground and planted in NWSG, but we can't afford that option. We've talked about trying to burn some of it, but I'm not sure that will help much. Has anyone dealt with something like this? What can we do that won't break the bank but will get deer to start using them in the daylight again?

 

[Newt]

I ve got the same issue on 20 acres I just bought it was logged in 2010 or there abouts just a bunch of stump sprouts came up and is at the stage where it is shading out the ground
I am going to just try hack and squirt and be patient

 

[MickThompson]

I would look into hinge cutting. Gum, maple, and poplar leaves are dang near fire retardant. I think you'd be pretty disappointed with that route

Or look into a drone spraying to fully reset it. It's cheaper than you'd think

 

[readonly]

Husqvarna 545 fxt is a precommercial thinning tool that costs about 1500$. It is fast and you have complete contol over what you cut vs leave. I have one and it is great for getting a lot of saplings on the ground fast. May not be a total solution for your situation, but might be a good start.

 

[Popcorn]

Drone spraying is going to be your best and most efficient approach. Especially if you want to cover all of those acres. Kill them in the spring after they leaf out within weeks you will have a flush of whatever is in the seed bank. You need to wait for that flush then spray kill that before you plant your NWSG which are slow to establish and do not compete well before they get established. Get that seed down ahead of a rain preferably by late June

 

[BSK]

Hack and squirt will work but is very time/labor intensive. In my opinion, aerial spraying is the way to go for large areas. Going to do it myself this spring. I was quoted prices around $115-120/acre for aerial spraying.

 

[bowhunterfanatic]

Hack and squirt will work but is very time/labor intensive. In my opinion, aerial spraying is the way to go for large areas. Going to do it myself this spring. I was quoted prices around $115-120/acre for aerial spraying.

Sounds like I need to go ahead and get my saw sharpened up then. May try and do one of them ourselves and have the other sprayed. Cutting everything down is pretty easy. It's the going back behind and getting it all sprayed to kill it that takes so long.

 

[Ski]

20yrs is a long time. I'm imagining 10" dbh diameter pole timber forest with wide open under canopy. Will aerial spray take care of that? If so, how would one go about a follow up spray? Would that also require aerial spray? Sure ain't going to get an atv with tank sprayer through it with all the standing stems.

 

[bloodtrailing]

Sounds like I need to go ahead and get my saw sharpened up then. May try and do one of them ourselves and have the other sprayed. Cutting everything down is pretty easy. It's the going back behind and getting it all sprayed to kill it that takes so long.

You need to spray sweet gum stumps the minute you cut them.

 

[bowhunterfanatic]

You need to spray sweet gum stumps the minute you cut them.

Literally cut then spray, or would cut then spray 4-5 hours later be okay? Just curious, but why is that?

 

[Popcorn]

Literally cut then spray, or would cut then spray 4-5 hours later be okay? Just curious, but why is that?

Once the stump dries your spray is much less effective.
The wet stump will draw the chemicals down.
With sweet gum like honey locust any remaining live root can and will generate another sprout.

 

[MickThompson]

Literally cut then spray, or would cut then spray 4-5 hours later be okay? Just curious, but why is that?

They start crusting over and sealing immediately.

 

[bowhunterfanatic]

They start crusting over and sealing immediately.

Will straight undiluted gly do the trick or do I need something else?

 

[Ski]

Will straight undiluted gly do the trick or do I need something else?

I've had good luck with Tordon RTU. It's a triclopyr premix and already has blue dye so you can visually keep track of everything you've treated. Wear chem gloves.

 

[BSK]

My aerial spraying is going to be an experiment, in that I have no idea what the outcome will be. The areas I'll be spraying are 5-year-old regrowth from a heavy timber thinning. They are currently a 10- to 15-foot-tall impenetrable wall of blackberries and saplings. What will happen after spraying? How much regrowth will we get? No idea. My plan (and we all know about the 'best laid plans of mice and men') is to maintain these areas by back-pack spraying any saplings that rebound, just like the TVA crews do in the powerline ROWs. Will this be possible? I have no idea. Will those massive blackberry thickets "lie down" once they're dead? No idea.

Prescribed fire after spraying would be the perfect situation, but getting fire equipment into these areas would be extremely expensive and difficult.

 

[bowhunterfanatic]

My aerial spraying is going to be an experiment, in that I have no idea what the outcome will be. The areas I'll be spraying are 5-year-old regrowth from a heavy timber thinning. They are currently a 10- to 15-foot-tall impenetrable wall of blackberries and saplings. What will happen after spraying? How much regrowth will we get? No idea. My plan (and we all know about the 'best laid plans of mice and men') is to maintain these areas by back-pack spraying any saplings that rebound, just like the TVA crews do in the powerline ROWs. Will this be possible? I have no idea. Will those massive blackberry thickets "lie down" once they're dead? No idea.

Prescribed fire after spraying would be the perfect situation, but getting fire equipment into these areas would be extremely expensive and difficult.

Think we are going to cut as much as we can stand, spray the stumps, then torch it. We basically have a natural fire break around all 4 sides of one of the thickets, so burning will be pretty easy. No idea what it will look like post burn when we start getting regrowth, but it can't be worse than what it is now.

 

[BSK]

Think we are going to cut as much as we can stand, spray the stumps, then torch it. We basically have a natural fire break around all 4 sides of one of the thickets, so burning will be pretty easy. No idea what it will look like post burn when we start getting regrowth, but it can't be worse than what it is now.

Sometimes, something is better than nothing.

 

[MickThompson]

Think we are going to cut as much as we can stand, spray the stumps, then torch it. We basically have a natural fire break around all 4 sides of one of the thickets, so burning will be pretty easy. No idea what it will look like post burn when we start getting regrowth, but it can't be worse than what it is now.

What fine fuels will carry your fire?

 

[bowhunterfanatic]

What fine fuels will carry your fire?

Leaf litter plus all the small saplings that'll be laying on the ground. It may not burn but I think it will. It'll be my first burn on a larger scale.

 

[bloodtrailing]

Literally cut then spray, or would cut then spray 4-5 hours later be okay? Just curious, but why is that?

You have 5 mins before the sap starts to cover it making herbicide less effective. Challenge with sweet gum are stump sprouts. Like an alien, you can turn one tree into 10.

 

[bloodtrailing]

 

[MickThompson]

Leaf litter plus all the small saplings that'll be laying on the ground. It may not burn but I think it will. It'll be my first burn on a larger scale.

There's a huge difference in the flammability of different leaves. Oak and hickory leaves are thick and stand up off the ground. They have lots of air space and fuel to burn. Pine needles have air space and flammable resins. Soft hardwoods, not so much. Those trees don't like fire and their leaf cast helps protect their feet.

 

[bowhunterfanatic]

There's a huge difference in the flammability of different leaves. Oak and hickory leaves are thick and stand up off the ground. They have lots of air space and fuel to burn. Pine needles have air space and flammable resins. Soft hardwoods, not so much. Those trees don't like fire and their leaf cast helps protect their feet.

That's really interesting. I never knew that!

 

[BSK]

Tr

There's a huge difference in the flammability of different leaves. Oak and hickory leaves are thick and stand up off the ground. They have lots of air space and fuel to burn. Pine needles have air space and flammable resins. Soft hardwoods, not so much. Those trees don't like fire and their leaf cast helps protect their feet.

Truly fascinating.

 

[MickThompson]

@bowhunterfanatic @BSK you can watch your fire creep into a patch of maple or poplar saplings and shrink to inches then go out cold from burning 2-3' tall through the oak and hickory litter. Really frustrating because I need intensity in those soft hardwoods to hurt them.

 

[BSK]

@bowhunterfanatic @BSK you can watch your fire creep into a patch of maple or poplar saplings and shrink to inches then go out cold from burning 2-3' tall through the oak and hickory litter. Really frustrating because I need intensity in those soft hardwoods to hurt them.

Absolutely fantastic info.

 

[ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]

Cut down and burn after time, do not be afraid of fire

 

[yellalinehunter]

I've had good luck with Tordon RTU. It's a triclopyr premix and already has blue dye so you can visually keep track of everything you've treated. Wear chem gloves.

I'd have another person help and swap out the cutting and application duties.

 

[Ski]

I'd have another person help and swap out the cutting and application duties.

That would be perfect. One guy cut and the other guy immediately treat the stump. It'll work. Pretty easy work all except piling up the brush for burning. That part sucks.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

[Really frustrating because I need intensity in those soft hardwoods to hurt them.

That is frustrating. I didn't know all the things you just mentioned, but have tried burning off all those areas with soft saplings. Need it HOT and the more violent the better, but often times it just won't run through there like that. And what you mentioned answers the why. It also answered why it gets so hot in our oak/hickory portions - that's the majority of our property.