bighornhunter
Well-Known Member
Is it legal to sell Indian relics? The reason I ask is I have been ask by others and did not know the answer.This looks like a good place to get a straight answer.
Legal issues of relics
- Thread starter bighornhunter
- Start date
Yes.
Well, I say yes because I have attended several "rock shows" and there is always some buying and selling going on.
I have personally bought and sold a few rocks myself. Only from and to people I know though.
Well, I say yes because I have attended several "rock shows" and there is always some buying and selling going on.
I have personally bought and sold a few rocks myself. Only from and to people I know though.
baldntatted
Well-Known Member
kool
Matador
Well-Known Member
May depend on where they are found. Pretty sure it's not legal if they are taken out of a known Indian burial ground.
Chris Tripp
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is legal, as long as its not stolen from known important archeological sites, or if legally taken from archeological sites, they have to have the proper papers, and as long as they are not found on Federal land/ and or Reservations. It is illegal to pick anything up period on Federal land or an Indian Reservation regardless.... I buy and sell artifacts frequently...
snaildarter
Well-Known Member
Federal lands.........such as TVA reservoir banks?
RS
Well-Known Member
Yep. TVA and Corps of Engineers property is off limits. I believe there was a case made a few years ago against a couple of guys that were digging around Old Hickory Lake.
snaildarter
Well-Known Member
The digging part is what got those fellas in trouble. You can possess artifacts found on the surface of the ground, but they can be confiscated. Follow the link for more info.
http://www.tva.com/river/landandshore/c ... es/faq.htm
http://www.tva.com/river/landandshore/c ... es/faq.htm
AlabamaSwamper
Well-Known Member
That is correct. You can pick them up but NO digging on TVA land.
There may be areas where you can't even pick them up like Key Cave NWR but for the most part, it's legal. BUT NO DIGGING!
There may be areas where you can't even pick them up like Key Cave NWR but for the most part, it's legal. BUT NO DIGGING!
Just to add, even possession on some Federal land (National Park Service and others) is illegal and serious fines and penalties result, even felony charges can result for ARPA (Archeological Resource Protection Act) violations.
These lands are under the administration and jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior for preservation and protection for future generations.
This includes picking up relics from the ground and even possession of metal detectors, not to mention digging.
These sites include National Military/Battlefield Parks (Shiloh, Stones River), National Parkways (Natchez Trace Parkway) and, as mentioned above, National Recreation Areas (Big South Fork).
Just a heads-up for clarification.
These lands are under the administration and jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior for preservation and protection for future generations.
This includes picking up relics from the ground and even possession of metal detectors, not to mention digging.
These sites include National Military/Battlefield Parks (Shiloh, Stones River), National Parkways (Natchez Trace Parkway) and, as mentioned above, National Recreation Areas (Big South Fork).
Just a heads-up for clarification.
How about the banks of the Cumberland river?
Yes you can sell them. There are shows all over the US. There's a big one coming up in Pigeon Forge next month. There's a bunch of social media groups too that buy, sell, trade. You can't sell human remains though. At one time people were digging mounds and keeping skulls and selling them too. In the south there was a group of Indians here before the Cherokee that were cannibals. In their mounds they often had skull cap ornaments/decorative pieces from possibly enemies they killed. And ate. Anyways that kinda stuff is neat but can't sell it legally.
As far as picking them up, there's a clause in ARPA that Jimmy Carter wouldn't sign ARPA into law with them making the exemption. That exemption is...that it wouldn't be illegal to pick up artifacts exposed by erosion. You can't dig, sift, scratch the surface with a rake, or dive but there is that exemption for erosion. Erosion would be from water levels dropping, wave action, etc. This is even stated on the TVA website but they still try to make it seem like there's a penalty. I carry a copy of the exemption highlighted but I haven't ever had any trouble just walking. I also carry a trash bag with me though and pick up trash. And fishing lures.
As far as picking them up, there's a clause in ARPA that Jimmy Carter wouldn't sign ARPA into law with them making the exemption. That exemption is...that it wouldn't be illegal to pick up artifacts exposed by erosion. You can't dig, sift, scratch the surface with a rake, or dive but there is that exemption for erosion. Erosion would be from water levels dropping, wave action, etc. This is even stated on the TVA website but they still try to make it seem like there's a penalty. I carry a copy of the exemption highlighted but I haven't ever had any trouble just walking. I also carry a trash bag with me though and pick up trash. And fishing lures.
I was trained by TVA for a program called One Thousand Eyes. We basically monitor sites on TVA property and report the site conditions to make sure they are not eroding and are being looted. If you pick up any artifact from TVA property, not just Native American, you are in violation and are subject to arrest. They do not play around here in North Alabama. There are serious fines, as well as long sentences, for violations. There are currently several laws dealing with looting artifacts from federal lands that many folks are not aware of.
On Seven Mile Island, I have seen tents where campers were staying that had no floors. The folks were looting the burials and using the tents to cover them. It is unreal the amount of damage folks are still doing to the areas along the TN River. I am not allowed to even pick up a point if it is exposed on the surface when I am monitoring a site assigned to me. I have dug many small holes and placed points in them and reburied them where they were laying.
I dont want anyone digging up my mother and father for possible artifacts they may have been buried with to sell. I feel the same way about my Native American heritage!
On Seven Mile Island, I have seen tents where campers were staying that had no floors. The folks were looting the burials and using the tents to cover them. It is unreal the amount of damage folks are still doing to the areas along the TN River. I am not allowed to even pick up a point if it is exposed on the surface when I am monitoring a site assigned to me. I have dug many small holes and placed points in them and reburied them where they were laying.
I dont want anyone digging up my mother and father for possible artifacts they may have been buried with to sell. I feel the same way about my Native American heritage!
Smo
Well-Known Member
FYI..
Section 6, (g) Nothing in subsection (d) of this section shell be deemed applicable to any person with respect to the removal of arrowheads located on the surface of the ground.
And this, taken from the TVA website:
"Although there are no penalties under this act for removing arrowheads that you find on the ground..."
They then transition from that to going on about digging. You'll notice the same wording in "Teacher"s post above. Notice how he transitioned from surface finding to talking about digging graves. That's the problem right there. They try to link them together and they are different. I am not for digging or site destroying. But an arrowhead washed out of the bank has lost its historical providence by erosion....manmade and natural. You'll also be hard pressed to find any actual court case data for prosecution of surface pickups. It's all public record. This excludes the "I know someone that knew somebody that" stories. I'm talking actual facts. You can find it for digging and diving though. Ever wonder why? There's several YouTube channels of people all over the TN river surface collecting with thousands of subscribers
If there's a thousand eyes watching they must be blind because there's hundreds of videos on public domain with people surface hunting. Usually the people telling you that kind of stuff are just trying to keep places to themselves.
And this, taken from the TVA website:
"Although there are no penalties under this act for removing arrowheads that you find on the ground..."
They then transition from that to going on about digging. You'll notice the same wording in "Teacher"s post above. Notice how he transitioned from surface finding to talking about digging graves. That's the problem right there. They try to link them together and they are different. I am not for digging or site destroying. But an arrowhead washed out of the bank has lost its historical providence by erosion....manmade and natural. You'll also be hard pressed to find any actual court case data for prosecution of surface pickups. It's all public record. This excludes the "I know someone that knew somebody that" stories. I'm talking actual facts. You can find it for digging and diving though. Ever wonder why? There's several YouTube channels of people all over the TN river surface collecting with thousands of subscribers
If there's a thousand eyes watching they must be blind because there's hundreds of videos on public domain with people surface hunting. Usually the people telling you that kind of stuff are just trying to keep places to themselves.MickThompson
Well-Known Member
It's been thoroughly covered here for public land, but if it's private land you'd be stealing from the landowner.
Crow, I basically have a small library of books on Native American history in the southeast Appalachian region and surrounding areas. I don't recall ever reading anything about this, do you have a link or resource where I could read more about this? Very interesting!
Yes sir. I will have to look back but I am thinking it was the series by Lewis, Sullivan, and Kneberg. They were who did the pre flood UT excavations in the 1930s and early 1940s. They did a number of books detailing all of their excavation works in the region. The cannibals would have probably been the Dallas indians that were here long before the Cherokee. Their books often overlap and repeat. I have the Prehistory of the Chickamauga Basin 2 volume series they did, the Hiwassee Island book, and Tribes That Slumber book. If you don't have any of those I highly recommend them. There's another one that's older called the Aboriginal Sites on the TN River by Clarence Moore. The Lewis & Kneberg books go better into the culture and such of the different groups here. I think when they did Hiwassee Island there were up to 4 distinctly different groups that had inhabited it, and that's excluding the Cherokee because they didn't go that far down the river. Very interesting reads and full of photos.
I have the Hiawassee island excavation book and Tribes that slumber. I will look for the others. The Dallas culture seemed to be the most prominent on Hiawassee island as I recall but I don't remember reading anything about cannibalism. I reckon I need to revisit. Thanks for the info!
I'm going strictly by memory so don't quote me. The Dallas also went down to around Wolftever creek and had a big village there around Harrison Bay that was excavated. It's detailed in the Chickamauga basin series. They were often at war with some of the other clans in the area. I can't remember if it was them or one of the others.
Ledford Island excavations are also in there but I understand there were also more recent excavations there that utilized more modern methods. The Little Tennessee river excavations book is also a good read if you are more into Cherokee and the culture after settlers started coming into the area. It was done in the 1970s and 80s with more modern archeological excavations and practices. It's more data driven but interesting if you are into that kind of stuff. Here's a skull pendant someone found here 30 years ago than someone posted in the Tennessee group. It was found with rattlesnake pendants as well.
