The most compelling data I have seen
- Thread starter DeerCamp
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kaizen leader
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Great information. Thank you.
kaizen leader
Well-Known Member
1,000 opinions are worth zero without the facts. These are at least facts and does show a correlation. It is a fact that predictors have been on the increase for many years. Yotes and Dillos for sure.
I'm convinced that's the problem.
It is not likely just one thing. It is normal for new populations to sky rocket above carrying capacity and then fall back below and level out. Doesn't explain the crash that occurred but that's where the other factors including predation come into play. One thing that has been left out is weather. Poor weather conditions for a species two or three years in a row will cause it to crash. It is likely a combination of all these. We saw a sharp decline in our area about a decade ago that lasted about three years, but now have a stable population. We have almost no predator removal. We regularly see(in person and on camera) coons, armadillos, coyotes, skunks, possums, owls, hawks of all kinds, and bobcats. Poor weather conditions for poults will cause the worst recruitment in a population than anything else. Predators will not take every egg/poult from every nest/clutch in an area, but the weather will.
Never killed one "nest raider" off my property in 20 years. I can sure as hell tell you it wasn't nest raiders that started the decline 7-8 years ago. It more to do with opening of turkey season sounding like the opener of deer season 20 years ago. Limit resources and people have mowed them down. Its pretty simple in my area to figure out why its declined. You can scream nest raiders all you want.
Carlos
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I can't remember who brought it to the table, but they mentioned how the agency has no idea how many turkey hunters we have each year.
That's a huge fail IMO, and they should follow up on his suggestion.
That's a huge fail IMO, and they should follow up on his suggestion.
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With regard to the decline of the turkey population, I am certain there is more than one factor at play. If it was just one thing causing the decline it would be very obvious and we wouldn't still be squabbling about it.
Carlos
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Right, which makes identifying the issue more difficult. Just like an intermittent maintenance problem, it's tougher to isolate.
The thing is, there's enough people and $$$ here to have already figured this one out. Are we all DA's or what?
I mean, come on, what's all the college degrees good for, if they can't nail this down?
Is 10 years of study not long enough?
(Frustrated)
I've always thought the decline has went hand in hand with the increase in popularity of the sport I'm sure everything has played a hand in the decline. But I wouldn't be surprised if the number of hunters hasn't been the biggest detriment
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's the number of hunters so much as it's the collective "effectiveness" of those hunters. The outcome of which was made more dramatic when the annual bag limit went from 2 to 4 (now back to 2).
Not that I think the hunters have been the biggest detriment, but simply one of many big detriments. And is it fair to lump together the illegal "hunters" with the legal ones? Prior to 2023, I suspect the annual number of turkeys killed over bait had been steadily rising, likely surpassing 25% of all turkeys killed in TN by humans using a gun.
Of course, the more widespread use of baiting & feeding has also increased aflatoxin poisoning of turkeys, while that "feed" actually fed more racoons than turkeys! Widespread "feeding" is greatly enhancing the raccoon population all across TN. Feeding helps coons, but generally hurts turkey populations (via increased predation @ feeders & aflatoxin poisoning).
It's really near impossible to isolate the single biggest detriment, in part because it may be different in different areas. I'm sure in some areas it is in fact raccoons breaking up nests.
I continue to believe among the biggest detriments is the increase in raptor predation, in particular the predation from owls & small hawks during the 1st couple weeks after hatching. Of course, these small poults can also be easy prey for most any predator (like dogs, housecats, bobcats, coyotes, etc.).
It's just that the raptors are the only attackers which have greatly increased their numbers while the others have been more stable. In many areas, there are fewer raccoons than in times past, when there were several times more turkeys. These areas in the past also had comparable numbers of coyotes.
Another thing in the past I had never seen, but now see with alarming frequency is bald eagles going for adult turkeys out in a field. Have also seen them appear to be specifically hunting for turkeys in large stands of hardwoods. Not that a strutting Tom in a field isn't particularly vulnerable to a patient bobcat or coyote, but Mr. Tom has zero chance once an eagle catches him out in the open.
AT Hiker
Well-Known Member
I've already shared a few studies showing that intensive predator management (thousands of acres and thousands of man hours, something none of us can realistically do) has little to no impact on populations.
I have also shared where intensive management has had a positive impact but not all factors were controlled for.
So, there is no conclusive evidence that predators are the cause of what we are seeing. Of course predators have an impact, like they always have. There is just no conclusive evidence that proves intensive predator management has much of an impact.
I have also shared where intensive management has had a positive impact but not all factors were controlled for.
So, there is no conclusive evidence that predators are the cause of what we are seeing. Of course predators have an impact, like they always have. There is just no conclusive evidence that proves intensive predator management has much of an impact.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Bumped a hen off a nest today doing some spraying. Crows found it before the hen could even get back on.
I've already shared a few studies showing that intensive predator management (thousands of acres and thousands of man hours, something none of us can realistically do) has little to no impact on populations.
And we showed this decades ago while I was in college and part of turkey restoration programs in Indiana. Predators and habitat are always the easy target, when most usually the problem of game management is people. Take turkeys for instance…a super long season and a huge limit screams to kill every turkey you can because there's SO many turkeys. Kill your birds, call some in for friends, allow others to come hunt you property, decoys, baiting, 70-80 yard gun/load combinations, and on and on. Hunters (in general) have no apparent ability of self control when it comes to game. They orient themselves to "the law" contained in the regs and call it good if they stay within those bounds. How many times have we read posts that say "if it's legal then do it"? A million times, and there is no care about the resource whatsoever.
And we showed this decades ago while I was in college and part of turkey restoration programs in Indiana. Predators and habitat are always the easy target, when most usually the problem of game management is people. Take turkeys for instance…a super long season and a huge limit screams to kill every turkey you can because there's SO many turkeys. Kill your birds, call some in for friends, allow others to come hunt you property, decoys, baiting, 70-80 yard gun/load combinations, and on and on. Hunters (in general) have no apparent ability of self control when it comes to game. They orient themselves to "the law" contained in the regs and call it good if they stay within those bounds. How many times have we read posts that say "if it's legal then do it"? A million times, and there is no care about the resource whatsoever.
AT Hiker
Well-Known Member
To piggy back off your "...when most usually the problem of game management is people..." comment.
As most know, the winter was brutal in parts of the West this year. I have already made my mind up, after speaking with the regional biologist, that I'm applying for a specific antelope unit. I was hesitant because I felt a sense of guilt trying to kill one when 1/2 of them have died this past winter. The biologist gave me his perspective and it made sense, essentially he said "the does make more, we need to protect them. The bucks will have done the majority of the breeding by the time you hunt".
Of course, the biologist don't always get what they want. In this case, not all doe tags that needed to be removed from the application pool were. So, I'm going to do my part and apply for some doe tags. If I draw them, I will frame them and hang them in my trophy room. It will be the best tag soup I've ever eaten.
Now, ask yourself this...how many people are going to apply for these tags, ignorant to what the biologist recommend, go hunt and kill a resource that is on the brink of something catastrophic, all the while thinking they are good to go because "it is legal".
I've felt the same way about turkeys for several years now. I just cannot bring myself to kill anywhere near my legal limit.
That is a fact. An influx of any type of predators in an area, will decimate populations of any type of animal: be it turkey, deer, elk, etc.
Up until about 2014 raccoon pelts were still worth good money. Prices tanked after 2014 and have never recovered, fuel prices spiked, and lots of older trappers hung up their gear.
