Measures of QDM "success"

[TheLBLman]

Wes,

You are getting off BSK's subject!

I disagree, as I believe the countywide deer regs have a great bearing on the success or failure of small-property QDM.

Either Sex regs do nothing to alter the buck harvest. The hunter that wants to shoot any buck will do so weather he shoots a doe or not.

If you believe that, there's a bridge on I-40 I'd like to sell you. Of course a hunter willing to shoot any buck will not change his buck standards, but many of them would shoot a doe first and then call it, not only a day, but a season.

Look at the doe kills in unit L last year. A few hunters are going to shoot does with a rifle. Most won't.

Maybe because most hunters afield (even in Unit L) who actually killed a buck did not have a doe tag?

In Indiana we have a general firearms tag that is buck only.
In order to kill an antlerless deer one must purcase a "bonus tag". That is $24 for the first one and $15 for each tag there after.

We have tried , unsuccessfully so far, to get the IDNR to make that general firearm tag an either sex.

Tow, that's almost exactly how it is in Tennessee.

We have tried , unsuccessfully so far, to get the IDNR to make that general firearm tag an either sex. That way when it comes down to the end of the season of that hunter he might just pop a doe instead of that small buck.

Or often just the beginning or the end of the day .

We hear the "I took a forkie on the last weekend just for meat" way too often.

Exactly

 

[BSK]

Then again we have bucks that I'll spot and scout in late August and most of the time video them for future use. Some of those bucks will vanish when they shed their velvet. Whether they are leaving or just simply going nocturnal from their testosterone change I haven't figured out...

A lot of times those bucks will materialize once or twice during the peak of the chase phase.

I've seen that pattern before. They shift ranges at antler velvet shedding just far enough to take them off the property, yet during the rut, their range expands just far enough to bring them back onto the property during peak breeding.

 

[BSK]

...as I believe the countywide deer regs have a great bearing on the success or failure of small-property QDM.

I absolutely agree with that. I firmly believe the changes in state regulations (especially the lower buck limit) has had a HUGE impact in my area. Even my cousins' 300 acres down the road, that they don't have the time to manage anywhere near as intensivley as I manage my own land, is seeing much improved buck age structure. They have the opprtunity (and do) kill a couple of older bucks each year. That wasn't the case before the lower buck limits.

 

[JWW4]

While the topic of different states and their varing laws is being discussed. Seeing as how deer don't know about or observe state lines has a study ever been done on the deer in tennessee that may share ranges say in TN/KY and how they differ from deer in TN/GA or TN/MS ranges?

 

[David J]

Wes,

I'm not going to hijack BSK's thread. I'll argugue with you on another thread.

 

[deerchaser007]

BSK,.... the radio collared deer information you are talking about,.... is the study information consist of land that is properly managed for habitat, sacuaries,food plots, and how much land is involved in the study??

Based on that study alone,... that information would be critical when your talking how to measure success from a QDM project on small properties. Seems if the study was conducted on land that did not have sancuaries, dense habitat for cover and food, and food plots that the study may reveal different results.

 

[TheLBLman]

Wes,

I'm not going to hijack BSK's thread. I'll argugue with you on another thread.

I agree we shouldn't get sidetracked on this thread talking about the finer points of statewide deer management. My purpose was just to make a point that the statewide regs do have a great effect on the potential results of QDM on smaller properties.

But when you start that other thread, you may be arguing as much with BSK as with me . . . . .

...as I believe the countywide deer regs have a great bearing on the success or failure of small-property QDM.
I absolutely agree with that.

 

[Whitehorse]

I'm pretty happy, the way my last few seasons have gone regarding time in the woods, if I get in the field & see a deer - or part of one if it's alive!

 

[Mike Belt]

Let's not forget that QDM minded practices are not just for our sake. Whether they are killed during the hunting season on the property under management, on adjacent properties not practicing QDM, or never killed at all; all could be considered moot points. At least to some degree, stereotypical QDM practices are designed to benefit and maximize the whitetail deer and they accomplish just that. Even without hanging their heads on our walls we gain the satisfaction of being able to give something back to the sport that so drives our lives.

 

[BSK]

Good point Mike. I bet even a smaller property can be the source point for a bunch of healthy yearling bucks that disperse across a wide area. Those early-born, healthy young bucks have the best chance of becoming big, healthy older bucks for a lot of hunters to pursue.

 

[BSK]

While the topic of different states and their varing laws is being discussed. Seeing as how deer don't know about or observe state lines has a study ever been done on the deer in tennessee that may share ranges say in TN/KY and how they differ from deer in TN/GA or TN/MS ranges?

I've never seen a study on this, but you will see numerous hunters commenting on the large size of bucks in the northern TN counties that border KY.

 

[BSK]

BSK,.... the radio collared deer information you are talking about,.... is the study information consist of land that is properly managed for habitat, sacuaries,food plots, and how much land is involved in the study??

Based on that study alone,... that information would be critical when your talking how to measure success from a QDM project on small properties. Seems if the study was conducted on land that did not have sancuaries, dense habitat for cover and food, and food plots that the study may reveal different results.

So far, only one really detailed study released to the scientific community. A second will be released this year, but I received some insider information on that one recently. The first was conducted on a well-managed property in the DelMarVa Penninsula in an area that is heavy agriculture, and the patterns were very much linked to that agriculture, in that seasonal patterns were being driven by maturation of agriculture and dates of harvest.

I don't know the study site situation of the second study (yet), other than it was conducted by an Auburn graduate student, so I suspect it was somewhere in southern AL. But what I found interesting was the matching patterns between the two studies, especially those of bucks making short-duration, long-distance "forays" during the rut. These long-distance forays have major implications for small-land management, as a buck being "grown" on one property may end up being killed on one of his rut forays miles from his regular home range.

 

[BSK]

Deerchaser007,

Here's what Steve Ditchkoff, head of the Wildlife Department at Auburn, had to say about their study:

I have a student completing his thesis on buck movements that has a lot of relevance to some of the things mentioned on here in the past day. When following bucks for 24 straight hours, we find that 2.5 year old bucks (the youngest that we monitored) frequently made what we called "exploratory" movements where they would bee-line (as described by BSK) about 1.5 to 2 miles and return immediately. However, we saw the same deer doing it in different directions on several occasions. Because of the extremely high proportion of mature males in this population, we interpreted these movements as a response to the lack of available does because the big boys were locked down on them. In essence, we believe they were actually checking to see if the "grass was greener". Of course, this is pure speculation. We are also seeing some movement patterns in high fences that would suggest that this is occurring there as well, and we will begin to examine this pattern this fall.

One of the chapters in this thesis is on home range shifts...similar to what BSK described. In the population that we studied, we are finding that it is the norm, rather than the exception, and it has huge implications for deer management, and some of the things we are talking about. You will definitely want to read this when it's complete.

 

[Greg .]

Let's not forget that QDM minded practices are not just for our sake. Whether they are killed during the hunting season on the property under management, on adjacent properties not practicing QDM, or never killed at all; all could be considered moot points. At least to some degree, stereotypical QDM practices are designed to benefit and maximize the whitetail deer and they accomplish just that. Even without hanging their heads on our walls we gain the satisfaction of being able to give something back to the sport that so drives our lives.

THANK YOU, Mike.

 

[deerchaser007]

Thanks for sharing that info BSK,.. and i fully agree with the last part saying you will definitely want to read this when complete. I know i would.......

That is amazing that a buck can cover 1.5 to 2 miles in 24 hours and return to his homerange.

 

[BSK]

Thanks for sharing that info BSK,.. and i fully agree with the last part saying you will definitely want to read this when complete. I know i would.......

That is amazing that a buck can cover 1.5 to 2 miles in 24 hours and return to his homerange.

They saw the exact same pattern at Remington Farms in Maryland. Bucks would take off, cover a couple of miles in just a few hours, appear to chase a doe around for a day, and then make a bee-line back to his home range. I asked the Ph.D. running the program what percent of older bucks make these trips, and he said just about all of them do it at least once during the rut, with some doing it multiple times.

Another point that Steve brought up was that most bucks in their study did not have consistent rut range from year to year. The average overlap between an individual buck's rut range from one year to the next was only 50%, and some bucks displayed completely different rut ranges from one year to the next with no overlap between the two.

 

[156p&y]

BSK what times of day did the majority of the bucks make this bee-line back to his homerange? I ask b/c I've seen older bucks trotting almost franticly in a dead straight line to areas they bed, right at and right after daylight. It was like they where vampires that had to get in their coffin before the sun was completely up. It may just be a freak incident but I've seen it several times and mostly during the rut. And when I say straight line I'm talking, not on a trail and just lowering their heads to go through thick brush. In every case they all been older aged deer atleast 3.5 and up.

 

[David J]

I can believe that a deer can travel 1 to 2 maybe even 5 miles away from his core area and I am not sure it isn't done a whole lot more than just in the rut. A man can cover 5 miles in an hour walking why is it hard to believe a deer can't do the same thing especially at night. I feel that as more research is done on the habits of deer we will see more and more myths fall by the way side.

 

[BSK]

156p&y,

Most of these beeline travels are at night. In fact, one buck got hit by a car on the way back home. Kind of wierd to see the GPS positions heading quickly in a fairly straight line and then the last point is in the middle of a road.

 

[BSK]

I can believe that a deer can travel 1 to 2 maybe even 5 miles away from his core area and I am not sure it isn't done a whole lot more than just in the rut. A man can cover 5 miles in an hour walking why is it hard to believe a deer can't do the same thing especially at night. I feel that as more research is done on the habits of deer we will see more and more myths fall by the way side.

I think the question isn't that they can do it, but why they do it. How do they know where they are going?