Whats everyone doing?

[buckaroo]

In a purely hardwood environment, thick evergreens, such as younger pines or cedars thickets, are Mana from Heaven to deer. They use them extensively as cover and during cold, wet weather. However, as pines and cedars mature, the quality of the cover they provide diminishes.

Yes, mine are 30 ft

 

[buckaroo]

about to clear 20 acres similar ground. Dozer would be easy but will leave a mess of rough ground unless you are disking nd planting. I dont want to deal with that and the seed bank stored there. I will cut and pile with a tractor in windrows that will burn next year and hope for a return of the natives that thrived here before. Warm season grasses and forbs, cover and browse.

Thats pretty much what I did, its an awesome workout

 

[DoubleRidge]

In a purely hardwood environment, thick evergreens, such as younger pines or cedars thickets, are Mana from Heaven to deer. They use them extensively as cover and during cold, wet weather. However, as pines and cedars mature, the quality of the cover they provide diminishes.

The cedar areas I'm wanting to improve have diminished....when I was a kid it was an excellent cover area with low limbs on the cedars..... today all the low limbs are dead 6 foot off the ground.....the size of these two areas (14 acre & 3 acre) realistically prevents me from doing the project myself (and ever making any progress) So I'm struggling what to do?
My goal or hope is to thicken these areas and return it to the sanctuary ground it once was....food plot ground isn't the goal....this area also consist of dogwood and a few poplar but I'd guess it's 85% old large cedar......so hire it out and cut all of the cedars? Or cut portions of them in sections? Cut and leave tops laying? Mulch? Sorry to have so many questions but these two areas have me searching for the best route to take.....open too any suggestions.

 

[buckaroo]

In a purely hardwood environment, thick evergreens, such as younger pines or cedars thickets, are Mana from Heaven to deer. They use them extensively as cover and during cold, wet weather. However, as pines and cedars mature, the quality of the cover they provide diminishes.

My problem when I do cut out, winged elm, sweetgum, poplar, sawbriar, trumpet vine, and just crap comes up

 

[DoubleRidge]

In a purely hardwood environment, thick evergreens, such as younger pines or cedars thickets, are Mana from Heaven to deer. They use them extensively as cover and during cold, wet weather. However, as pines and cedars mature, the quality of the cover they provide diminishes.

While reading this post the word that comes to my mind is "diversity" ....our Forester pounded that word into my head while discussing land & wildlife management.....our place was majority mature hardwood with some "old field growth"....a young pine stand or young cedar thicket (that provides cover) would bring great diversity (and edge) to a pure stand of hardwood.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

You are absolutely correct and with time might work on this property but This ground was part of a commercial pine property and has had generations of pines raised and harvested then they bulldozed and bogged before replant. This was some of the poorest soil I have ever worked with when I built plots in it and now we are clearing around the plots to create cover, security and native browse, will also have to burn, doze and bog to make it manageable and the owner wants to insure a good stand hopefully sooner rather than later. It takes seeded warm season grasses 3 years to establish (Sleep, creep and leap) are what some call it. On grossly abused and poorly managed soils hoping for the seedbank to deliver can be a long wait. We are hoping for the process you mentioned to work over most of the thinning ground.

Makes sense. The places I've looked, that seed is very high. Are you having a conservation group come in to do the work? If you've found a place to get the seed somewhat affordable, I'd love to know where from.

 

[megalomaniac]

I've been testing small areas using a forestry mulcher. Early summer mulching had a postive response, early fall mulching for firebreaks are looking on the plus side so far. We are just starting winter mulching. What kind of results have you had and what time of the year did you do the mulching?

I reclaimed an old 5 acre field filled with 3-7 inch diameter trash trees (mostly hackberry) 3rd week of August. They did a great job back mulching, but due to the density of the stand of trash timber, the amount of fresh mulch might have impacted my ability to replant immediately, so I raked and burned a lot of the surface mulch. 2 weeks after mulching, raking, then burning, I no till drilled in wheat, radishes, and clover. The following spring, I got 2.2 6ft bales per acre off that field. This winter's field is even better, I'm expecting well over 3 bales per acre next spring.

another overgrown small field I had mulched as well (overgrown with the same trash and same density), but did not have them spend as much time back mulching, nor did I rake and burn the mulch. I literally broadcast crimson clover and turnips while they were mulching. I got a decent stand on that foodplot, but the soil was so devoid of lime and nutrients, it really didn't start to shine until this year (it has taken me over a year to get the pH up). It looks incredible this year, and the deer have been hammering it.

We haven't had much competition from weeds or regrowth, but we've used a ton of herbicide since then.

 

[BSK]

While reading this post the word that comes to my mind is "diversity" ....our Forester pounded that word into my head while discussing land & wildlife management.....our place was majority mature hardwood with some "old field growth"....a young pine stand or young cedar thicket (that provides cover) would bring great diversity (and edge) to a pure stand of hardwood.

Habitat diversity is a key factor in deer usage of an area. Years ago, I used to give a lecture at deer hunting/management symposiums on how critical habitat diversity was for hunting success. I'll have to go back and see if I can find some of the graphics from that talk.

As some background, I got involved in deer management because of my background working with the U.S. Census Bureau on Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and "spatial statistics." GIS is a digital mapping system that has data linked to the features in the map. Spatial statistics is statistical analysis based on how geographically related the data is (data collected from locations close together will be more related than data collected from locations farther apart). Spatial statistics has a lot of relevance in deer management. In essence, statistical analysis of data from your neighbor's property has far more relevance to your property than data collected from two counties away. Spatial statistics provides a numerical means of accounting for that relevance. Basically, it provides a way of giving more statistical "weight" to data collected closer geographically than data collected farther away.

As most know, I require anyone hunting my property to collect extremely detailed observation data while hunting. I even have every stand location used for more than 20 years marked with highly accurate GPS (sub-meter accuracy). I've also had a GIS map of the property's habitat for every year since the late 1990s. Because I can link a hunter's observation data to a geographic location, I can spatially analyze that data against just about any factor that is also geographic. On a lark, I looked at every stand location and measured the habitat diversity in that location for that year (counted the number of different habitat types within 100-yard radius circle of the stand), and then compared that to the hunter's observations. Spatially analyzing years and years of hunter-collected observation data against each locations habitat diversity value, I found a near perfect linear regression. In essence, hunters' deer observations rates were almost perfectly associated with how diverse the habitat was around their stands. The higher the habitat diversity, the more deer they saw while hunting. However, there was one caveat to that. In bumper acorn years, sighting rates could be very high from stands in non-diverse locations that were all oaks. But outside of that one caveat, and especially in poorer acorn production years, habitat diverse was THE key to seeing the most deer from a particular stand location.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Habitat diversity is a key factor in deer usage of an area. Years ago, I used to give a lecture at deer hunting/management symposiums on how critical habitat diversity was for hunting success. I'll have to go back and see if I can find some of the graphics from that talk.

As some background, I got involved in deer management because of my background working with the U.S. Census Bureau on Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and "spatial statistics." GIS is a digital mapping system that has data linked to the features in the map. Spatial statistics is statistical analysis based on how geographically related the data is (data collected from locations close together will be more related than data collected from locations farther apart). Spatial statistics has a lot of relevance in deer management. In essence, statistical analysis of data from your neighbor's property has far more relevance to your property than data collected from two counties away. Spatial statistics provides a numerical means of accounting for that relevance. Basically, it provides a way of giving more statistical "weight" to data collected closer geographically than data collected farther away.

As most know, I require anyone hunting my property to collect extremely detailed observation data while hunting. I even have every stand location used for more than 20 years marked with highly accurate GPS (sub-meter accuracy). I've also had a GIS map of the property's habitat for every year since the late 1990s. Because I can link a hunter's observation data to a geographic location, I can spatially analyze that data against just about any factor that is also geographic. On a lark, I looked at every stand location and measured the habitat diversity in that location for that year (counted the number of different habitat types within 100-yard radius circle of the stand), and then compared that to the hunter's observations. Spatially analyzing years and years of hunter-collected observation data against each locations habitat diversity value, I found a near perfect linear regression. In essence, hunters' deer observations rates were almost perfectly associated with how diverse the habitat was around their stands. The higher the habitat diversity, the more deer they saw while hunting. However, there was one caveat to that. In bumper acorn years, sighting rates could be very high from stands in non-diverse locations that were all oaks. But outside of that one caveat, and especially in poorer acorn production years, habitat diverse was THE key to seeing the most deer from a particular stand location.

Fascinating information and explanation!! THANK YOU for sharing!! Appreciate it!!

 

[BSK]

DoubleRidge,

For years after discovering that link, I worked on trying to "tease out" statistically which habitat types were the most powerful in drawing deer. But after many frustrating unsuccessful attempts, I finally realized that habitat "value" changes year to year, depending on the local deer population's "need" for that habitat type and the rarity of that habitat type. As a simple example, in a bumper acorn year, deer have much less "need" for food plots than they do in an acorn failure year. And food plots have much more drawing power if food plots are rare in the area. Need and scarcity...

 

[TheLBLman]

And food plots have much more drawing power if food plots are rare in the area. Need and scarcity...

Lots of good info within this thread.
Couple things to add.

Regarding BSK's spatial analysis, my best hunting tactic has often been to pinpoint those areas of converging different habitats where other hunters simply haven't been hunting. Older deer tend to gravitate to the areas of the least disturbance, but will still favor areas of the most diverse habitat convergence.

This may sound stupid, but often, the best hunting "spots" are where there is the least deer sign, which usually means no other hunters had any inclination to hunt such a "spot". That lack of hunter disturbance, in turn, causes older deer to shift into those areas.

Back to food plots.
Anyone else ever notice how you can spend a fortune cultivating plots with all the latest designer plants,
only to have the deer selectively pick & prefer the native ragweed? Or honeysuckle growing around the edges?

To me, one of the best bangs for my time & money is simply mowing & liming (and often lightly disking).
This allows me to have many times the acreage of native "food" plots compared to what I can justify fully cultivating and planting with expensive seed.

 

[DoubleRidge]

DoubleRidge,

For years after discovering that link, I worked on trying to "tease out" statistically which habitat types were the most powerful in drawing deer. But after many frustrating unsuccessful attempts, I finally realized that habitat "value" changes year to year, depending on the local deer population's "need" for that habitat type and the rarity of that habitat type. As a simple example, in a bumper acorn year, deer have much less "need" for food plots than they do in an acorn failure year. And food plots have much more drawing power if food plots are rare in the area. Need and scarcity...

Makes sense....and also supports the importance of trying to create diversity within the habitat that we manage.... because as you mention, things can change from year to year.....thanks again for sharing.... very interesting.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Lots of good info within this thread.
Couple things to add.

Regarding BSK's spatial analysis, my best hunting tactic has often been to pinpoint those areas of converging different habitats where other hunters simply haven't been hunting. Older deer tend to gravitate to the areas of the least disturbance, but will still favor areas of the most diverse habitat convergence.

This may sound stupid, but often, the best hunting "spots" are where there is the least deer sign, which usually means no other hunters had any inclination to hunt such a "spot". That lack of hunter disturbance, in turn, causes older deer to shift into those areas.

Back to food plots.
Anyone else ever notice how you can spend a fortune cultivating plots with all the latest designer plants,
only to have the deer selectively pick & prefer the native ragweed? Or honeysuckle growing around the edges?

To me, one of the best bangs for my time & money is simply mowing & liming (and often lightly disking).
This allows me to have many times the acreage of native "food" plots compared to what I can justify fully cultivating and planting with expensive seed.

That concept of selecting a spot doesn't sound stupid to me at all...makes sense actually......and as for the cultivated food plots verses native "food".....I have witnessed exactly what you described.....now the deer that use our place do hammer the food plots....but many, many times I have watched them standing in a green plot eating native browse around the edge.... very common. For this reason (and financially) our native food acreage (grown up field... honeysuckle, briar, native grasses) far out numbers our cultivated plots....and as discussed before...we bush hog strips through the native to encourage new growth....but you & BSK both have mentioned running a disk lightly over bush hogged areas ....so I'm going to add this step to our management plan.... appreciate the input.

 

[DoubleRidge]

My problem when I do cut out, winged elm, sweetgum, poplar, sawbriar, trumpet vine, and just crap comes up

I know what your saying....it can be frustrating.....but I guess it depends on what your goal is? The area I'm wanting to work on is a cedar desert with a few dogwood and poplar mixed in....but it's basically wide open......I want some native "crap" to come up and be thick..... currently understory is open with little to no browse.

 

[BSK]

Regarding BSK's spatial analysis, my best hunting tactic has often been to pinpoint those areas of converging different habitats where other hunters simply haven't been hunting. Older deer tend to gravitate to the areas of the least disturbance, but will still favor areas of the most diverse habitat convergence.

This may sound stupid, but often, the best hunting "spots" are where there is the least deer sign, which usually means no other hunters had any inclination to hunt such a "spot". That lack of hunter disturbance, in turn, causes older deer to shift into those areas.

Wes already knows this because we've discussed it many times, but all of the hunting on my place is done from ladder stands (we're all too old for climbers and lock-ons). We have a lot of ladder stands, and we try to move about 1/3 of them each year to new locations. Because I have all of the past hunting time logged into the GIS for the property, I can produce a spatial map of the hunting pressure applied over time. I usually create a "topo map" of hunting pressure applied over the last 3 years (basically, the adult lifetime of a 3 1/2 year-old buck). What I'm looking for is "holes" in our hunting pressure. Older bucks have an uncanny way of finding holes in hunting pressure and spending a majority of their daylight hours in these locations. Once I've identified the holes in our hunting pressure over the last three years, I examine each one for the best combination of terrain and habitat. Once I find those locations, we move as stand there, regardless of existing sign. As TheLBLman stated, often the best locations to ambush a mature buck show very little buck sign.

The interesting part of this process is that although about half of these new "hunting pressure hole" stand locations are complete busts, invariably the other half will be the hottest stands on the property that year. I produce a map of the stands on the property each year, with the stand markers color-coded to indicate how long the stand has been in that location. The other hunters have all figured this pattern of half of the new stand locations being the ultra-hot stands hence at the beginning of the season (which for us is opener of MZ season) it is a free-for-all race between the hunters to see who can be the first to hunt each of the new stands! Everyone understands old bucks will usually be seen/killed from these stands in the first 3 times they are hunted.

 

[megalomaniac]

Habitat diversity is a key factor in deer usage of an area. Years ago, I used to give a lecture at deer hunting/management symposiums on how critical habitat diversity was for hunting success. I'll have to go back and see if I can find some of the graphics from that talk.

As some background, I got involved in deer management because of my background working with the U.S. Census Bureau on Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and "spatial statistics." GIS is a digital mapping system that has data linked to the features in the map. Spatial statistics is statistical analysis based on how geographically related the data is (data collected from locations close together will be more related than data collected from locations farther apart). Spatial statistics has a lot of relevance in deer management. In essence, statistical analysis of data from your neighbor's property has far more relevance to your property than data collected from two counties away. Spatial statistics provides a numerical means of accounting for that relevance. Basically, it provides a way of giving more statistical "weight" to data collected closer geographically than data collected farther away.

As most know, I require anyone hunting my property to collect extremely detailed observation data while hunting. I even have every stand location used for more than 20 years marked with highly accurate GPS (sub-meter accuracy). I've also had a GIS map of the property's habitat for every year since the late 1990s. Because I can link a hunter's observation data to a geographic location, I can spatially analyze that data against just about any factor that is also geographic. On a lark, I looked at every stand location and measured the habitat diversity in that location for that year (counted the number of different habitat types within 100-yard radius circle of the stand), and then compared that to the hunter's observations. Spatially analyzing years and years of hunter-collected observation data against each locations habitat diversity value, I found a near perfect linear regression. In essence, hunters' deer observations rates were almost perfectly associated with how diverse the habitat was around their stands. The higher the habitat diversity, the more deer they saw while hunting. However, there was one caveat to that. In bumper acorn years, sighting rates could be very high from stands in non-diverse locations that were all oaks. But outside of that one caveat, and especially in poorer acorn production years, habitat diverse was THE key to seeing the most deer from a particular stand location.

Makes sense....

Is there 1 particular habitat within that 100y radius of maximum diversity that seems to be key?

In other words, were the highest observation stands those with the most diversity, but were close to BLANK (food plot, open hardwoods, ridge, funnel, dense horizontal cover, dense vertical cover, etc, etc)

And if so, did that key component vary between morning and evening observations?

 

[Popcorn]

Makes sense. The places I've looked, that seed is very high. Are you having a conservation group come in to do the work? If you've found a place to get the seed somewhat affordable, I'd love to know where from.

We pay a premium but seed quality is good and they let me adjust blends they pre blend for me if wanted. I like to reduce the big blue stem to minimal amounts because it is very tall, aggressive and will eventually become the dominate species. I order from Roundstone seed out of Upton, KY. They have a great reputation and a magnificent catalog that is very educational and informative. The most thorough single source I know of and knowledgeable staff. If I need simple orders quick of standard blends like CRP blends I sometimes use Kentucky American Seed out of Hopkinsville, KY.

 

[Popcorn]

My problem when I do cut out, winged elm, sweetgum, poplar, sawbriar, trumpet vine, and just crap comes up

Once you have sufficient matter to carry a fire burning will help reduce trashy sprouts. Till then mow or spray is all you got.

 

[BSK]

Makes sense....

Is there 1 particular habitat within that 100y radius of maximum diversity that seems to be key?

In other words, were the highest observation stands those with the most diversity, but were close to BLANK (food plot, open hardwoods, ridge, funnel, dense horizontal cover, dense vertical cover, etc, etc)

And if so, did that key component vary between morning and evening observations?

That's where I tried to "quantify" or give a weight to each habitat. Couldn't seem to make it work because what was the the most attractive habitat changes from year to year.

Never analyzed morning versus evening. Interesting idea.

 

[BLC]

I started with several hundred. We didn't have bears everywhere at the time. Now we have bears everywhere. Bears don't let the fruit get ripe. They tend to rip all of the limbs off and break the trees down as early as June. A deer doesn't have a prayer of getting an apple or pear or persimmon or anything here.

Jamestown, TN is having that much problems with bears?