What do you think of this article BSK or anyone ? Update : Another article

[Snake]

Culling Bucks to Improve Antler Genetics: Fact or Fiction?

The notion of influencing antler genetics in wild, free-range deer by removing bucks with antlers deemed inferior by some standards has been around for years. But, the research findings on the subject may surprise many hunters.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

Long read but hey deer season is over right ?

QDM Works. Culling Doesn’t. | National Deer Association

www.deerassociation.com

 

[BSK]

Good article. I hope those reading it will understand it is impossible to "cull out" inferior antler genetics from a wild deer population. Some other good studies have been done on very large deer populations, attempting to do just that. All the culling ended up accomplishing was killing too many young and middle-aged bucks without impacting mature buck antler expression at all.

 

[DRSJ35]

And that makes perfect sense to me. I've seen bucks people would consider a cull at 2.5 turn into a very decent buck in 2 years. I've never gotten into the culling. But know plenty who have.

 

[BSK]

Although hunters won't be impacting the genetics of a local population, there is something that can be done that can increase the number of top-end mature bucks. Although it is not a guarantee, MOST top-end mature bucks show that potential early on. It is not a coincidence that most of the top-end mature bucks I've photographed from 2 1/2 to maturity were top-end even at 2 1/2. Now sometimes a bottom-end 2 1/2 grows into a monster, but I would guess 80% of the top-end mature bucks I've been able to track over their lives started as a top-end 2 1/2. So if you want more top-end mature bucks, protect those top-end 2 1/2s in your area like they were gold at Fort Knox!

This is the type of 2 1/2 you do NOT want to kill. In TN, few 2 1/2s express 10 points at that age. Most go from 8 points at 2 1/2 to 10 or more at 3 1/2. This buck has serious potential if allowed to mature.

 

[DoubleRidge]

My understanding is:

Age...... Nutrition...... Genetics

Age....we can let bucks walk and allow them to reach maturity.

Nutrition....we can have some impact through sound land and habitat management.

Genetics.....there is absolutely nothing we can do to influence them.

When seeking to learn more about genetics the man I was speaking with ask me this:

"have you ever killed any bucks in the area your managing which meet your trophy desires"

I said....yes.....he came back with:

"ok...good...forget about genetics and manage the habitat and let bucks reach maturity."

 

[BSK]

Good one DoubleRidge!

I can honestly say plenty of bucks in everyone's hunting area have "trophy genetics." The question is, do those bucks have the year-round nutrition and stress free living conditions necessary to fully express those trophy genetics? Most don't.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Good one DoubleRidge!

I can honestly say plenty of bucks in everyone's hunting area have "trophy genetics." The question is, do those bucks have the year-round nutrition and stress free living conditions necessary to fully express those trophy genetics? Most don't.

Totally agree....and great addition with the "stress free living conditions" comment....great point.

 

[Snake]

Although hunters won't be impacting the genetics of a local population, there is something that can be done that can increase the number of top-end mature bucks. Although it is not a guarantee, MOST top-end mature bucks show that potential early on. It is not a coincidence that most of the top-end mature bucks I've photographed from 2 1/2 to maturity were top-end even at 2 1/2. Now sometimes a bottom-end 2 1/2 grows into a monster, but I would guess 80% of the top-end mature bucks I've been able to track over their lives started as a top-end 2 1/2. So if you want more top-end mature bucks, protect those top-end 2 1/2s in your area like they were gold at Fort Knox!

This is the type of 2 1/2 you do NOT want to kill. In TN, few 2 1/2s express 10 points at that age. Most go from 8 points at 2 1/2 to 10 or more at 3 1/2. This buck has serious potential if allowed to mature.

I wholeheartedly agree and thanks for input brother you've been sorely missed . I tried to get my partners to pass on those type bucks when we had the Lincoln Co. lease as I was pretty sure our neighbors did but it never came to pass. We did kill some great 3.5 yr bucks just would have liked to see them at least a couple more years but it didn't come to fruition.

 

[Snake]

This is great stuff guys . The things you can do then do , the things you have no control over then don't fret over it . The most important part is age, no matter what you do otherwise most likely if the deer don't reach a mature age then his potential is not reached.

 

[BSK]

This is great stuff guys . The things you can do then do , the things you have no control over then don't fret over it . The most important part is age, no matter what you do otherwise most likely if the deer don't reach a mature age then his potential is not reached.

Honestly, to me, any mature buck is a trophy. 4 1/2+ year-old bucks are not easy to kill, no matter the antlers on their head. One of my proudest "trophies" is a 6 1/2 year-old buck with an 8-point basic frame that only grosses 112 (a droptine adds another 6 inches to give him a score of 118). He's my proudest kill because he's 6 1/2!

 

[fairchaser]

I agree with y'all's conclusions in a non CWD environment. How do you manage for mature bucks where every other buck has CWD? Is this just another mortality factor that makes those mature trophy bucks that much more a rarity? If you let them grow, aren't you increasing the odds of those bucks spreading more CWD?

A friend killed a nice mature bucks this season that tested positive. Based on TWR the buck is 5.5+. The buck did not show any outward effects from the disease. I know it's possible for a buck to contract the disease later in life but it sure is curious when it's supposed to kill them within a year or two.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread but nobody wants to talk about CWD anymore.

 

[megalomaniac]

So if you want more top-end mature bucks, protect those top-end 2 1/2s in your area like they were gold at Fort Knox!

This is key to killing larger antlered mature deer... And I would argue protecting the best of the 3.5 y/o age class is even more important if you want to kill a deer over 150" in TN

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I agree with y'all's conclusions in a non CWD environment. How do you manage for mature bucks where every other buck has CWD? Is this just another mortality factor that makes those mature trophy bucks that much more a rarity? If you let them grow, aren't you increasing the odds of those bucks spreading more CWD?

A friend killed a nice mature bucks this season that tested positive. Based on TWR the buck is 5.5+. The buck did not show any outward effects from the disease. I know it's possible for a buck to contract the disease later in life but it sure is curious when it's supposed to kill them within a year or two.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread but nobody wants to talk about CWD anymore.

I sure wish I knew the answer to this. I think we should have a CWD thread locked at the top. I think the best hope is that a buck does not contract the disease until he is over 2 years old....hoping he makes it to 4. It just baffles me, and maybe it affects whitetails more than elk and muleys, but all of my most quality hunts out west were in the heart of CWD - literally the darkest red portions of CO.

As to the topic at hand, it is so hard keeping those high genetic bucks alive until atleast 4.5. I am guilty myself of killing those higher end 3.5's. No regrets here, but we do terminate the possibility of killing a "buck of a lifetime" in doing so

 

[BSK]

As to the topic at hand, it is so hard keeping those high genetic bucks alive until atleast 4.5. I am guilty myself of killing those higher end 3.5's. No regrets here, but we do terminate the possibility of killing a "buck of a lifetime" in doing so

Everything comes down to what you REALLY want from your hunting/management, and most importantly, what are you willing to give up to get there?

if killing the highest scoring bucks possible is your goal, and that's fine with me if it is, then you will have to give up much to get there. But hunter/managers also need to be realistic, and one of the primary determinants of trophy management is location/habitat. In essence, are you trying to manage for trophy bucks in a region that can regularly produce them? Just because you can get bucks to maturity doesn't mean you will grow a bunch of 150+ bucks. You have to have good habitat for a significant portion of the local mature bucks to grow 150+ racks.

A case in point, a client of mine has several thousand acres. They don't kill bucks until maturity. They have a ton of mature bucks. Better than 1 in every 10 bucks on the property is mature. But how many 150+ do they grow and kill? Almost none. Why? They don't have the "groceries" to grow high-end bucks. upper 130-class bucks? Oh yes, a ton of those, but not many 150+. Now look at my personal property of only 500 acres where any buck 2 1/2+ is a legit target, yet we grow a 150+ buck almost every year. Why the difference? Although my place is nearly all timber or cut-over timber, nearby are some astoundingly productive agricultural bottomlands filled with thousands of acres of corn and soybeans each year. In fact, "we" don't actually grow the top-end bucks we hunt each year. Our neighboring farmers do.

Much about successful trophy management is location, location, location.

 

[BSK]

This is key to killing larger antlered mature deer... And I would argue protecting the best of the 3.5 y/o age class is even more important if you want to kill a deer over 150" in TN

And that is why I say to successfully manage for top-end bucks means you will give up much. How many hunters really want to pass up a 130 or possibly even a 140 buck just because the buck is only 3 1/2? Not many. But that is EXACTLY how you grow top-end trophy mature bucks.

For the few trophy properties I work with, I run an early season photo census in September and October, and then just before the real killing starts with the opening of MZ season, I produce an "Absolutely DO NOT kill" list for the hunters, providing pictures of each middle-aged buck (2 1/2 and 3 1/2) that needs to be protected. This will include the 10-point 2 1/2 year-olds and the 3 1/2 year-olds pushing the 130 mark. If you want to produce more trophy-size mature bucks, you can't be killing the top-end middle-aged bucks.

 

[BSK]

I agree with y'all's conclusions in a non CWD environment. How do you manage for mature bucks where every other buck has CWD? Is this just another mortality factor that makes those mature trophy bucks that much more a rarity? If you let them grow, aren't you increasing the odds of those bucks spreading more CWD?

A friend killed a nice mature bucks this season that tested positive. Based on TWR the buck is 5.5+. The buck did not show any outward effects from the disease. I know it's possible for a buck to contract the disease later in life but it sure is curious when it's supposed to kill them within a year or two.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread but nobody wants to talk about CWD anymore.

I'm by no means a CWD expert. However, I have followed the efforts of Wisconsin, as they have been fighting the battle with CWD in the Eastern U.S. the longest. Personally, I don't think any of their efforts have done much. And that's NOT a knock on them, just the reality of how difficult the CWD problem is. Again, this is just my opinion, but I'm not sure attempts to drastically reduce deer density is the answer to CWD. This may slow the spread, but is still spreading and will continue to spread. I believe CWD is an accident of our making that Nature will have to "fix," and that fix will take a very, very long time.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should do nothing about CWD. But I also believe, from a hunting standpoint, some of our attempts to mitigate the problem may almost be worse than the problem.

 

[TheLBLman]

I'm not saying we should do nothing about CWD. But I also believe, from a hunting standpoint, some of our attempts to mitigate the problem may almost be worse than the problem.

Amen.

 

[Snake]

Ton of knowledge here for those wanting to hunt only mature bucks thus are trophies no matter the rack score . All bucks to me are trophies in their own right . Thanks for all the input guys I appreciate it although I don't have a place to practice QDM but young bucks do get a pass .