Perfect. Thank you! That was what I was needing to know. I never understood what the difference was.
Using Gun Powder in a Muzzleloader
- Thread starter SteveJ
- Start date
Wobblyshot1
Well-Known Member
In my humble opinion, I think this post should be locked and a disclaimer issued about using smokeless in firearms that it wasn't intended for.
fairchaser
Well-Known Member
Another problem with using smokeless powder is the ability to work up a load. This is a common methodology for hand loads but you wouldn't be able to examine the brass for pressure signs. How would you know if or when the pressure was too high?
Wiley
Well-Known Member
I have to wonder if the guy shooting smokeless powder in his muzzleloader isn't stressing the barrel steel over time and is playing with a pipe bomb that will eventually blow up.
KPH
Well-Known Member
If the manufacture said not to do I wouldn't do it.
I dont think so but possibly. 150gr by volume of real black makes between 14Kpsi to 16Kpsi for a 250gr bullet in a sabot. The one thing i am pretty sure of is that load will have temp stability issues in a 50cal with a 250gr bullet. You can not compare the 50-70 load data. Its not that simple. A sabot should always be seated firmly on the powder creating a 100% or compressed load density. So the only loads you can even remotely compare are compressed CF loads. The load you mentioned of 4198 in a 50-70 probably wont even begin to fill the case.
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ImThere
Well-Known Member
I don't think threads like this should be edited, blocked or any other way censored. People need to hear this. If not many will be uninformed and think why not. We need to have smart discussions about the why and why nots of many things hunting, shooting and climbing trees. It will make us all safer. Just food for though. IMHO if the op would have been blocked and not asked the question and got the answers he may have tried this and lost a finger or two or worse
Grill-n-man
Well-Known Member
It is never ever ever good to shoot smokeless in a BP gun. Knight, like other BP gun makers, has a magnum charge rating for each model. Just like you can shoot BH209 in their bolt guns but not the plunger ones. These manufacturers test these guns to keep us safe. Firing any firearm out of its manufacture's design is not only dangerous but not smart. Your buddy is fixing to hurt himself and others. It's been said plenty. But DONT DO IT and find a better shooting buddy. No offense but truth is the truth
I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else but you need to fully understand how dangerous shooting smokeless in a BP gun is. I hope you can take these comments and can convince your buddy to stop doing that
I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else but you need to fully understand how dangerous shooting smokeless in a BP gun is. I hope you can take these comments and can convince your buddy to stop doing that
Absolutely!
sun
Well-Known Member
The BPCR smokeless loading is only being mentioned to show that 4198 can be used in antique conversion guns made with antique steel.
In the early smokeless era, there were weak smokeless powders and bulk semi-smokeless powders that more approximated black powder characteristics which aren't produced anymore.
One such smokeless was named Schultze powder which can be read about on Chuckhawks. --->>> https://www.chuckhawks.com/real_blackpowder_substitute.htm
Another was named King's Semi-smokeless.
What is semi-smokeless powder?
"Semi-smokeless powder was a mechanical mixture of mostly black powder and a fairly small proportion of nitrocellulose. It was useful because it could be loaded bulk-for-bulk with black and had similar ballistic properties but left significantly less fouling in the bore." --->>> https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=13511#:~:text=Semi-smokeless powder was a,less fouling in the bore
Here's a short interesting thread titled "Pyroxylin and semi smokeless" alternative powders: --->>> https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588661
The point is that since not all smokeless powders and loads are the same, then why try to characterize all of them as having the same amount of danger?
Each smokeless powder charge would need to be judged on its own merits considering the quality of the barrel steel and other individual load factors.
For instance, the Kings semi-smokeless was used in original C&B revolvers that were made using much weaker steel than is used in reproduction C&B revolvers today.
The fact that it was recommended and safely used by experts can't be denied.
The Ruger Old Army was originally proof tested with full chambers of Bullseye powder.
The North American Arms Companion and Super Companion .22 C&B revolvers were originally advertised as safe to be loaded with Bullseye until the Fed's threatened to remove their classification as an antique if they didn't change the recommended load listed in their owner's manuals.
But many people currently load them with 1-2 grains of Bullseye powder depending on which model.
Otherwise the guns have very anemic performance for use as personal protection with BP and substitutes.
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Wobblyshot1
Well-Known Member
All these post with visuals and such are starting to make my head hurt. Now for a real visual of results of smokeless powder used incorrectly in a muzzle loader. This happened, I believed, in 2009 when many of our members were just kids so they may not be aware of the incident. It happened to be with a Savage smokeless muzzle loader and may be one of the reasons they quit manufacturing this model(liability?). Before the smokeless guys go for their canes to give me a good bashing, I have said before that I have nothing against their use... It's just not my cup of tea. Used correctly 100% of the time blow ups are 100% of the time not going to happen. I don't know exactly what was done to cause this accident but the end result is pictured. I tried to upload a regular muzzle loader video showing one coming apart with smokeless powder was used in it but couldn't figure how. Nuff said, I guess. In short follow the manufacturer's recommendation, be careful, pay attention, and finally have fun.
sun
Well-Known Member
This appears to be the story related to that injury which wasn't the only one associated with that Savage smokeless mode;l.
Gun maker's exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters
It was the opening day of deer hunting season, and Ronald Hansen says he loaded his rifle the same way he had countless times before, aimed at a target and fired a shot.This time, the gun barrel exploded, knocking the farmer from Hampton, Iowa, backward, s
cbs2iowa.com
You'd think that if the gun was defective that Savage would be trying to take them off the market by either recalling them or buying back as many as they could find, or both.
Here's another similar story that resulted in a thumb amputation.:
Hunting Accident with Muzzleloader Results in Thumb Amputation
This gruesome hunting accident is not easy to look at. Here's hoping the gentleman recovered from the muzzleloader explosion.
www.wideopenspaces.com
HatchieLuvr
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2017
- Messages
- 80
I've owned and hunted with my Savage ML10ii since it's first year (2003) and have another for one of my sons. (I also have a TC Impact that I use Blackhorn 209 in and inside of a 200yd setup, I honestly see no need anymore for these heavy Savage's vs something light and easy like this Impact shooting Bh209!)
As for the OPs post, load it up in 10 grain increments, video all shots, keep intimate notes and once you blow your gun up, back off 25% and call it good!
As for the OPs post, load it up in 10 grain increments, video all shots, keep intimate notes and once you blow your gun up, back off 25% and call it good!
KPH
Well-Known Member
I like my smokeless they can flat drop a deer, but follow the manufacture recommendations.
There are always 2 sides to the stories and i cant imagine someone that made a mistake is going to man upto it when a lawsuit is possible. There were 10s of thousands of shots fired by guys on Dougs forums with MLIIs and book loads. Cant say i remember a single kaboom other than an old one using large amounts of Lil Gun. A few buldged barrels sure but the kabooms were very rare and the vast majority are user error whether they admit it or not. Guys posted shooting the ramrod out and the barrels didnt come apart so its hard for me to believe these stories by ambulance chasers and blackmailers like TB.This appears to be the story related to that injury which wasn't the only one associated with that Savage smokeless mode;l.
Gun maker's exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters
It was the opening day of deer hunting season, and Ronald Hansen says he loaded his rifle the same way he had countless times before, aimed at a target and fired a shot.This time, the gun barrel exploded, knocking the farmer from Hampton, Iowa, backward, s
You'd think that if the gun was defective that Savage would be trying to take them off the market by either recalling them or buying back as many as they could find, or both.
Here's another similar story that resulted in a thumb amputation.:
Hunting Accident with Muzzleloader Results in Thumb Amputation
This gruesome hunting accident is not easy to look at. Here's hoping the gentleman recovered from the muzzleloader explosion.
People like you re-tell these kaboom stories in one breath but ignore the fact that most brands are totally ok with 3 pellet load data that makes as much peak or more than a MLII book load. Its called hypocrisy and it flows from people in the ML community that post that garbage over and over. Never once have i seen you post the dangers of Traditions allowing a 3 pellet load in their barrels. Yet it is surely just as dangerous as a MLII with a barrel that was actually proofed for loads that high.
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iowavf
Well-Known Member
Always stories out there about people using smokeless powder in a gun not made for it but they get by with it. These type of people are those you watch on YouTube and shake your head at yet others will follow in their footsteps and afterwards think what did I do? No articles or internet post will help some people who don't have common sense!
sun
Well-Known Member
I provided a reference link for the photo that Wobblyshot1 posted which explains how the guy injured his hand.
And the article also mentioned that there have been 45 lawsuits over burst Savage barrels which it's better to know about than to not know about, no matter what caused them.
Folks should be aware of safety issues if they're thinking about using smokeless powder in any muzzle loader.
"In Palatka's case, a federal magistrate in 2015 sanctioned the company for a "purposeful record of obfuscation" that included falsely claiming that it was aware of only two prior explosions while withholding information that showed otherwise.
The company acknowledged in Hansen's case that it received 45 legal claims related to burst or split barrels dating to 2004...."
Hunting Accident with Muzzleloader Results in Thumb Amputation
This gruesome hunting accident is not easy to look at. Here's hoping the gentleman recovered from the muzzleloader explosion.
www.wideopenspaces.com
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FYI- Gabe Hoover of Cumberland Co. TN lost his hand with a Savage a few years ago. I spoke to him about the accident after it occurred.
He insisted it was powder only as they had already removed the load and cleaned the plug and were just trying to get the powder to burn.
I told him about S.E.E. that has occurred randomly since the late 1800's, manufacturers haven't been able to constantly reproduce. When we see it today mostly it's associated with large volume cartridge rifles (many BPCR) loaded with smaller amounts of smokeless & no filler.
The flame goes across the powder laying horizontal and it doesn't ignite - it detonates.
He put the blame on himself and was grateful for the explanation.
SEE - Secondary Explosion Effect
He insisted it was powder only as they had already removed the load and cleaned the plug and were just trying to get the powder to burn.
I told him about S.E.E. that has occurred randomly since the late 1800's, manufacturers haven't been able to constantly reproduce. When we see it today mostly it's associated with large volume cartridge rifles (many BPCR) loaded with smaller amounts of smokeless & no filler.
The flame goes across the powder laying horizontal and it doesn't ignite - it detonates.
He put the blame on himself and was grateful for the explanation.
SEE - Secondary Explosion Effect
That is still a confined space which smokeless powder needs. I cant see how any small amount of even 5744 will create enough pressure with NO BULLET on top of it to burst a barrel. Let alone a Savage book load. Cram enough powder in there...maybe. Some of the really fast pistol powders in book load amounts....maybe but even that is a hell of a "maybe".
I would be far more concerned about the 100s of thousands of smokers out there and vendors allowing 3 pellet loads that make 30kpsi with ease. I would be far more concerned about all the novice users not using witness marks. Ive seen tons of burst barrels using subs where the bullet was short started. Far more than i have ever seen from smokeless muzzleloaders.
Even the Rem Ultimate is not immune to total failure when someone double loads it.
