Trail cameras ban

[TNGRIZZLY_]

I've been pretty outspoken and think that anything left on public property is trash. I probably wouldn't have that big of an issue with it if they would require trail cams on public property to be clearly marked on the exterior with the owners identity. If its unmarked, finders keepers. It's required for treestands and I find them all the time and have yet to find one that has a TWRA ID written on it.

I was thinking the same thing, mark them like you do trap's. Be less problem with people leaving them.

 

[D.Akins]

My take is cameras give a bigger advantage to the "shooter". Where is the woodsmanship in getting a cell cam picture, tearing out to location and just set up? Drones and the such is next. Most people are lazy by nature.
Just ones opinion,

 

[BPhunter]

My take is cameras give a bigger advantage to the "shooter". Where is the woodsmanship in getting a cell cam picture, tearing out to location and just set up? Drones and the such is next. Most people are lazy by nature.
Just ones opinion,

Hey, drones are really cool. What's even more fun is when someone flies one over you and you take it out.....seriously, they are fun and can be very useful. In Commierado, electronic devices of any kind for hunting are verboten!! And you are correct....they get lazier by the day.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Hey, drones are really cool. What's even more fun is when someone flies one over you and you take it out.....seriously, they are fun and can be very useful. In Commierado, electronic devices of any kind for hunting are verboten!! And you are correct....they get lazier by the day.

I have this one spot I hunt that is so thick only the deer can move through it. I would love to get a drone over it some time (not during hunting season of course, maybe day the after it closes) just see if the big ones are hanging out in the thickets. My thoughts are that they have a clearing in the middle and they are hanging around smoking and joking about us hunters that can't see them.

 

[scn]

I believe the "problem" (at least in Tennessee) is more "perceived" than "real".

And much of this perception is based largely on false narratives from people who have never used a trail cam, and/or never used a cell cam. In fact, I've often seen the use of trail cams do more harm to the hunter using them, while actually providing greater advantage to other hunters not using cams. Go figure that one.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, in MOST REAL hunting situations, getting a sudden "trophy" animal pic to come in to your phone or computer from a cell cam does NOT allow you to simply walk over and shoot that animal. Yet this is exactly what many non-cam hunters and non-hunters very erroneously seem to think.

Knowing there's something better "out there", the trail cam user is more likely to give a pass to numerous other bucks, enhancing the shooter buck opportunities for all other hunters. And what commonly happens is that one of those other hunters luckily shoots a particular "target" buck of someone using a trail cam. Ironically, it is the trail cam user who often ends up shooting fewer bucks due to his use of trail cams. Ask me how I know.

Are there exceptions to this generality? Absolutely.
But most of those exceptions were already either illegal or unethical, i.e. not the typical type hunting situation of most hunters. In fact, at least in TN, most of these illegal/unethical exceptions would or could only happen on private lands, not public.

A common "exception" is the guy who has a corn feeder behind his house, a night scope on his suppressed rifle, and a cell cam monitoring his corn feeder. Cell cam goes off at 1am, trophy buck is feeding 100 yds behind his house. He pokes his rifle out the back bedroom window and kills it, maybe not even waking up his neighbors. I hate this situation, and the fact so many these poachers get away with it (in the short run), but it is not a legitimate reason to ban trail cams, nor is it happening to much extent on public lands in TN.

It's similar to the situation of banning guns.
If we outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns?

Poachers do not obey game laws any more than convicted felons obey gun laws.
They're going to do whatever they think gives them an advantage, legal or illegal,
so long as they think they can get away with it.

Too many our laws & polices already punish the honest majority while rewarding the dishonest who never obey those laws in the first place.

IMO, the disdain and much of the negative projection towards other hunters using trail cams is more a case of the "Have Nots" vs. the "Haves", and is as much a situation of misunderstandings as it is of negative projection (and sometimes jealousy) by the "Have Nots".

Do trail cams give the users an advantage? I think so.
Do trail cams give those not using them an advantage? I think so.
I think their use is a positive for both the users and the other hunters who choose not to use trail cams.

But after decades of using trail cams, I believe most trail cam users are creating for themselves an advantage on one hand, while sabotaging their own success potential on the other. This is mainly due to a lot of false narratives and inexperience with both trail cams and hunting. The most common mistake is thinking you're going to kill a particular buck anywhere near where you're regularly getting his picture.

I'm talking about the normal situations in TN, not some isolated water source in the middle of an Arizona desert.

So again, "generally speaking", but isn't that what we should base most our policy and general decisions, rather than a few "exceptions" or the illegal activities of a few?

I agree with you that "regular" trail cams are a hit and miss deal that likely doesn't change things very much.

However, the cell cameras are a different animal. They absolutely change the game in the users favor. While getting a picture of an animal and immediately leading to a successful hunt is rare, we have had at least a couple of folks on this site describe that very thing happening this past season.

And, while it wasn't phoned pictures and immediate kills, I can think of three bucks from the lease I hunt that most likely met their demise due to cell cams the past couple of seasons. I don't begrudge any of the three because they were taken by persons that go above and beyond with their help and support on said lease. They deserved all three of them. But, to say that modern technology didn't REALLY help, IMO, just wouldn't be true.

All of us use technology to some degree in our hunting, whether it is improved clothing, great scopes, etc. We definitely aren't in loin cloths shooting a rock on the end of an arrow.

But, like a lot of folks, there are "comfort levels" in using some of the technology we currently have access to. Cell cams to me are approaching the livescope stuff in fishing. I am certainly not wanting either banned, but, both are a step across the ethical line for me.

 

[D.Akins]

Agree with scn, to me at some point people will just want to kill one from the couch via Bluetooth in another county, state or country ..

 

[BSK]

But, like a lot of folks, there are "comfort levels" in using some of the technology we currently have access to. Cell cams to me are approaching the livescope stuff in fishing. I am certainly not wanting either banned, but, both are a step across the ethical line for me.

Agree completely. Getting a cell-cam pic of a buck in a food plot, and then immediately stalking up on that plot, is across the ethical-comfort line for me.

 

[tellico4x4]

Agree completely. Getting a cell-cam pic of a buck in a food plot, and then immediately stalking up on that plot, is across the ethical-comfort line for me.

No cams on our plots or club stands from Nov 1 - last Juvi for this very reason.

 

[beefydeer]

I dont like the word "ban".

 

[BSK]

No cams on our plots or club stands from Nov 1 - last Juvi for this very reason.

We don't have a problem because we don't have any cell cams. But then, we don't use trail cams to scout. They are purely used for collecting biological data.

 

[TheLBLman]

Agree completely. Getting a cell-cam pic of a buck in a food plot, and then immediately stalking up on that plot, is across the ethical-comfort line for me.

Then there is the reality of practicability and probabilities.

When you "see" deer in a field with your binoculars, you are normally much closer to having an opportunity to immediately stalk that deer than when one is typically seen on a cell cam pic.

More often, bucks are only "feeding" in a "stalkable" spot for a matter of seconds to a couple of minutes. Perhaps different story if you hunt over corn piles (which opens up another can of worms on ethics).

I run several cell cams year round.
Rarely are they set to "instantly" send pics, simply because they run batteries down so fast that the benefit of a cell cam becomes countered by more frequent visits to replace batteries.

Even when set to "instantly" send, there is still a delay (typically 1 to 3 minutes) before it comes in, and then, the person getting it simply may not be able to view until at least minutes or hours later.
And then, MOST often, the person receiving the pic, even if out hunting during hunting season, is in no position to suddenly go pursue the deer (or turkey) for which a pic just came in (often hours after it was taken).

Sure, there are exceptions to every generality.
But for the most part with most users, cell cams are just another scouting tool.
When it comes to "ethical" perspectives of some, it could be argued a rifle scope is less ethical than any trail cam? Maybe a turkey call? A "real hunter" should use only his own mouth?

One could argue it's just "not fair" that a retired person is free to "scout" (boots on the ground) 7 days a week, while other people have to work? Maybe the state should limit everyone to only being able to hunt 1 day a year, just to be fair to everyone?

Just saying, maybe we should be more concerned about stoking division between hunters than worrying about things that typically are not the problem we fear?

Back to one of my primary thoughts:

I'd rather have lots of hunters doing more of their "scouting" via using trail cams & cell cams
than via their physically more frequently putting their boots on the ground. This is my thought whether private or public lands, again, generally speaking. The less the areas are "disturbed", the better the hunting for everyone, including those who prefer not to use trail cams.

 

[TheLBLman]

We don't have a problem because we don't have any cell cams.

Nor would you have a problem if you were using cell cams.
Do you seriously thing there much opportunity for you to be sitting in your cabin, then run out & "stalk" a buck for which a cell cam pic cam in?
It would typically even be counter-production to attempt it.

But then, we don't use trail cams to scout. They are purely used for collecting biological data.

The collection of that data is indeed a form of scouting.

 

[BSK]

Nor would you have a problem if you were using cell cams.
Do you seriously thing there much opportunity for you to be sitting in your cabin, then run out & "stalk" a buck for which a cell cam pic cam in?
It would typically even be counter-production to attempt it.

The one exception I could think of would be sitting in your treestand, seeing nothing, and then a cell cam picture comes in of a buck in a food plot a couple hundred yards away. Would it be possible to then climb down and stalk up on that plot? Yes, possible.

 

[BSK]

The collection of that data is indeed a form of scouting.

Do I learn things from my trail-cams that make me a better hunter in the future? Oh yes! Absolutely! But that is not the intent of the cams. They are in the woods to collect biological data.

 

[TheLBLman]

Do I learn things from my trail-cams that make me a better hunter in the future? Oh yes! Absolutely! But that is not the intent of the cams.

Similarly, my cell cams are not in place to provide the remote possibility of seeing & stalking game in "real time". They are a data collecting too, no matter how we may rationalize one's use as being more legitimate than another's.

Same can be said for tree stands & riflescopes, both of which have been "outlawed" in places because some felt the use of either was either "unfair" or "unethical".

Look at all the cries of "unfair" & "unethical" regarding the legalization of crossbows in TN a few years. Shamefully, in retrospect, I was one of those against crossbows being legal during archery. Never mind it was actually a bit hypocritical of anyone using a compound vertical bow (instead of longbow, recurve) to cry foul @ crossbows. Turns out crossbows were just another option that is comparable to a compound bow, yet pales in comparison to the effectiveness of a muzzleloader or shotgun.

Again, I know there are exceptions to everything, and an isolated water source in an Arizona desert might be one of those. But I don't see any one "tool" being much more or less "unfair" or "unethical" than so many others we readily accept as being "ok".

I'm personally more concerned about the hunting ethics of someone taking low-probability shots than as to whether someone uses a trail cam. Our modern rifle scopes somewhat "encourage" this, yet in an ethical hunter's hands, same "tool" reduces game losses and allows for more clean kills.

 

[Atchman2]

My take is cameras give a bigger advantage to the "shooter". Where is the woodsmanship in getting a cell cam picture, tearing out to location and just set up? Drones and the such is next. Most people are lazy by nature.
Just ones opinion,

I would have to say, I would personally like that for hog hunting!

 

[BPhunter]

Similarly, my cell cams are not in place to provide the remote possibility of seeing & stalking game in "real time". They are a data collecting too, no matter how we may rationalize one's use as being more legitimate than another's.

Same can be said for tree stands & riflescopes, both of which have been "outlawed" in places because some felt the use of either was either "unfair" or "unethical".

Look at all the cries of "unfair" & "unethical" regarding the legalization of crossbows in TN a few years. Shamefully, in retrospect, I was one of those against crossbows being legal during archery. Never mind it was actually a bit hypocritical of anyone using a compound vertical bow (instead of longbow, recurve) to cry foul @ crossbows. Turns out crossbows were just another option that is comparable to a compound bow, yet pales in comparison to the effectiveness of a muzzleloader or shotgun.

Again, I know there are exceptions to everything, and an isolated water source in an Arizona desert might be one of those. But I don't see any one "tool" being much more or less "unfair" or "unethical" than so many others we readily accept as being "ok".

I'm personally more concerned about the hunting ethics of someone taking low-probability shots than as to whether someone uses a trail cam. Our modern rifle scopes somewhat "encourage" this, yet in an ethical hunter's hands, same "tool" reduces game losses and allows for more clean kills.

Friend that was very well said, and very logical. You know in this day and age, folks can justify condemning everything!

 

[tellico4x4]

Do you seriously thing there much opportunity for you to be sitting in your cabin, then run out & "stalk" a buck for which a cell cam pic cam in?

When cell cams started getting popular 5 or so years ago, I knew a guy on lease next to us that pretty much did that. He was at work in Hsv & got a pic of a great buck for our area sometime in afternoon. He took off the next day & got in shooting house a couple of hours prior to time as seen the day before. Like on a schedule, the buck walked out & killed. Believe it's the best buck they've taken on that lease. Just felt a little"tainted" to me... He had multiple cells on plots with that very reason in mind. Wasn't on my place but knew it could happen, thus we made rule about no cams on plots or club stands after Nov 1. Same for turkeys, cam have to be off plots a week prior to season.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . . . seeing nothing, and then a cell cam picture comes in of a buck in a food plot a couple hundred yards away. Would it be possible to then climb down and stalk up on that plot? Yes, possible.

But more probable you would just reduce your overall "odds" simply by climbing down and disturbing your hunting area.

Some would just set themselves up so that they had shooting lanes into those distant areas, then take 200-plus-yd shots at what they see in real time with their own eyes? This is much more possible than starting a stalk based on a cell cam pic circumstance.

 

[BSK]

But more probable you would just reduce your overall "odds" simply by climbing down and disturbing your hunting area.

Some would just set themselves up so that they had shooting lanes into those distant areas, then take 200-plus-yd shots at what they see in real time with their own eyes? This is much more possible than starting a stalk based on a cell cam pic circumstance.

Not on my property! If it's 60 yards away, it's on another planet!