Today I shot some 290g Barnes TEZ's out of my new TC Impact, with 90g of BH209. Out of six shots, there were a couple of flyers, and I later noticed that a couple of the sabots were missing petals. Coincidence?
Petals breaking off sabots?
- Thread starter TboneD
- Start date
stringtalker
Well-Known Member
What did you shoot the bullet into?
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
90 grains by weight or volume?TboneD said:
I just set up a buds cva wolf using 110gr by volume of bh209 and the Barnes 290gr TEZ...... No problems what so ever... I was actually amazed at the accuracy.... Clover leaf at 100yds.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
This morning I shot the best 200-yard group I've ever shot with my Savage smokeless, using those exact same Barnes bullets and their supplied blue sabots.
200-yard 3-shot group measured 0.67" (center-to-center of holes) which is a 0.34 MOA actual group at 200 yards.
I wasn't using BH209, but was using a "hotter" load than a 90-grain charge of BH209 (by volume).
I really like these particular Barnes bullets in my Savage, and so far have had no problems with the sabots.
200-yard 3-shot group measured 0.67" (center-to-center of holes) which is a 0.34 MOA actual group at 200 yards.
I wasn't using BH209, but was using a "hotter" load than a 90-grain charge of BH209 (by volume).
I really like these particular Barnes bullets in my Savage, and so far have had no problems with the sabots.
Wes Parrish said:
Using my old brass volume powder measure for now.
Hmmmm...well, the bases of the sabots were fine. Was the missing petals the reason for the flyers? I have no idea, but so far the best I can get from this TC is three shot groups of about 2.25" off a bench at 100yds.
I've tried 245g (or maybe it was 250g) XTP's and 100 g of BH209, and that was the worst with about a 3" group at 100yds. I tried one of the 295g XTP's, but it was just too dang tight with the supplied sabots. The Barnes shot about the same as TC 250g Shockwaves in the EasyGlide sabots, but I don't want to use those since they're the bonded ones. So I guess I'll try backing off the powder a bit with the Barnes and maybe pick up some unbonded TC Easy Glide 250 Shockwaves. They sure do load the easiest. This is the first TC I've ever had, and as I've heard, it definitely has the tightest bore of any MZL I've ever had.
Any other suggestions on what to try? I'm afraid that maybe part of the reason I'm having trouble is that the trigger is probably over 5lbs. If I confirm that, TC will take care of it, but it's a little late to send it off and have it back this season.
I've tried 245g (or maybe it was 250g) XTP's and 100 g of BH209, and that was the worst with about a 3" group at 100yds. I tried one of the 295g XTP's, but it was just too dang tight with the supplied sabots. The Barnes shot about the same as TC 250g Shockwaves in the EasyGlide sabots, but I don't want to use those since they're the bonded ones. So I guess I'll try backing off the powder a bit with the Barnes and maybe pick up some unbonded TC Easy Glide 250 Shockwaves. They sure do load the easiest. This is the first TC I've ever had, and as I've heard, it definitely has the tightest bore of any MZL I've ever had.
Any other suggestions on what to try? I'm afraid that maybe part of the reason I'm having trouble is that the trigger is probably over 5lbs. If I confirm that, TC will take care of it, but it's a little late to send it off and have it back this season.
Wes Parrish said:
Dang. You've got one heck of a muzzleloader there, Wes.
So do you think the reason I had some petals break off was because of the tighter TC bore? Do you think it matters? I'll try them with a little less BH and see what happens.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I have little idea as to why your petals broke off. I thought maybe you were using too much powder, and that possibly had an effect. Are they hard to load?
Muzzleloaders are particularly finicky.
A little more or less powder can greatly change your groups, and some guns simply don't like certain bullets & sabot combos.
Even the primer makes a bigger difference than most might think.
This morning, after shooting that sub-half-minute group at 200 yards, I decided to try the same load/bullet but with a CCIM 209 primer instead of the Federal 209A primers I prefer. I have a good supply of the CCI's and am low on the Feds, so just checking to see the difference.
I only test two rounds (at 200 yards) switching over to the CCI primers, but the difference in both POI and group size was significant. Changing nothing but the primer, my POI shifted about 3 inches to the right, about 1 1/2 inches low, and those two bullet holes were 2 1/2 inches apart. Not that I consider a 1.25 MOA 200 2-shot group "bad", but the bigger issue for me was they hit the target in a very different place, so after just two rounds, I have no plans of using those CCI primers (unless I can't find any more Feds).
Muzzleloaders are particularly finicky.
A little more or less powder can greatly change your groups, and some guns simply don't like certain bullets & sabot combos.
Even the primer makes a bigger difference than most might think.
This morning, after shooting that sub-half-minute group at 200 yards, I decided to try the same load/bullet but with a CCIM 209 primer instead of the Federal 209A primers I prefer. I have a good supply of the CCI's and am low on the Feds, so just checking to see the difference.
I only test two rounds (at 200 yards) switching over to the CCI primers, but the difference in both POI and group size was significant. Changing nothing but the primer, my POI shifted about 3 inches to the right, about 1 1/2 inches low, and those two bullet holes were 2 1/2 inches apart. Not that I consider a 1.25 MOA 200 2-shot group "bad", but the bigger issue for me was they hit the target in a very different place, so after just two rounds, I have no plans of using those CCI primers (unless I can't find any more Feds).
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
This gun is a "stock" factory Savage with no custom work done to it.TboneD said:
I think more a case of finally finding the exact "sweet spot" on the powder, bullet, sabot, and primer combination. Prior to this combo I was not particularly happy with this gun's accuracy although it has been producing sub 2MOA groups with many different combinations.
Ironically, I had tried some other Barnes bullets in this same gun with poor results.
my savage starts shearing petals at higher speeds with xtps, that what I based my comments on. heat from prev shots and ambient temps also affect the sabot. on a colder day the petals may stay intact with the fast load or waiting 10-15 min between shots. i don't load mine and let the heat soften the sabot, only load after the barrel has cooled or load and shoot quickly before heat affects it
Wes Parrish said:
The 290g Barnes TEZ's load ok, but they're tight enough that I wouldn't think of trying another Barnes sabot without the EZ sabot. Of course, one thing to consider is that since the 290g+ bullets are longer than the 250's, there's more friction and probably more chance of blowing the petals off...harder to seat as well.
I'm using Federal 209A primers as well since they were recommended over the Win primers by Blackhorn. That is pretty amazing that your gun shoots with them so much better than with the CCI primers. They were recommended by Blackhorn as first choice, but I haven't been able to locate any around here.
mike243 said:
Mike, heat considerations were my top priority yesterday to avoid stringing and sabot issues. I let the gun cool down 10-20 minutes in the shade before reloading on each shot. I'm thinking that maybe the 250g TEZ's wouldn't have the issue of petals breaking off in my TC since there's less friction. Thanks for the input.
iowavf
Well-Known Member
The TC's do seem to have a tighter barrel compared to CVA's. I throw the sabots that come with the Barnes I get for my 45 cal and replace with easy load Harvester sabots. The bullets are hard to load with the sabots they come with.TboneD said:
The thinner the sabot petals the easier they shear off when shot. TEZs are basically the same in loaded OD as the HPH-24 sabot and the petals are fairly long. They separate from the bullet quickly too
Sabots like the MMP orange 50x458 sabot are even thinner. Petals nearly always shear but its totally normal. They shoot just fine for many people.
Sabots like the MMP orange 50x458 sabot are even thinner. Petals nearly always shear but its totally normal. They shoot just fine for many people.
GMB54 said:
Thanks. I was hoping that petal shearing wasn't an issue. These Barnes bullets weren't cheap, and I have a lot more confidence in their performance than in the TC (Hornady) Shockwaves.
You can always try the Harvester Smooth Black sabot (for under 300gr bullet)if you wish. The loaded OD is very close to a HPH-24 sabot and they are slightly tougher. They are also slightly harder to load in extreme cold vs the MMP sabots. They hold up to warmer temps a tad better though.
Ive shot the HSB sabot upto 2400fps and it holds up fine.
Ive shot the HSB sabot upto 2400fps and it holds up fine.
I dont think knurling will help that since it happens as the bullet is leaving the sabot. Knurling will make them tighter loading. It wont hurt to try doing a light knurl. I knurl a couple Barnes bullets just because it seem to tighten up groups.
The Harvester short black is a shorter sabot than the HPH-24 but almost the same loaded OD. It may shoot better for you than the Barnes/MMP sabot.
The Harvester short black is a shorter sabot than the HPH-24 but almost the same loaded OD. It may shoot better for you than the Barnes/MMP sabot.
