One more time

Wildcat

Wildcat

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Sorry but it turned out to be a much longer post than I though it would. It's important to me.

If I lose friends then so be it but I WILL stand up for the Second Amendment but in my 66 years on this earth I've learned one thing. The most BLIND people are gun owners.

They are like liberals, in fact they are doing the very same things the left did for years until they GOT SMART.. Heck the gun owners are making the VERY SAME MISTAKE Hillary made. They are FORGETTING about the most important people. The Middle 60%.

The left and the right have always had around 20% each of the population. The right has ALWAYS supported the gun owners and the Second Amendment, the left has always been against both. So that's the left, 20% and the right 20%, that leaves 60% of the population in the MIDDLE. Donald Trump saw that 2 years ago and pulled in more of them than Hillary did, she FORGOT about them.

Think I'm wrong??? Go back on here and other hunting/shooting forms. Post after post after post ALL say the same things, the same things after every single gun bill that might or might not come up. And after every shooting.

Anti-guners
gun grapers
left
liberals
socialists
communists
progressists
etc
etc

We all know who our enemies are, there ARE ever gun owners in just about all those groups. We will NEVER change their minds. YES we must fight them. But we will never win the fight against them and they will never win it against us, they do not matter.

What DOES matter is how many of the Middle 60% they pull toward them and get them to VOTE their way on this issue. THAT is ALL they need to do and nothing else, that's all.

We on the other hand have several problems. We need to defend the Second Amendment as a whole and that can mean defending ALL parts of owning a gun. Look at some posts, there are a lot of gun owners that do not care for the AR-15 type rifles and it would not bother them if they were banned AND taken away. Who do you think they are going to VOTE WITH???? Bump stocks?? Same thing, they will vote with the left again. Stronger background checks, same thing. Raising age, same thing. But it will not only be them but most of the Middle 60%.

This shooting seemed different to me right away, just not the same. All that afternoon and night I watched Fox all day and I could not put my finger on it. The next morning I was watching Fox & Friends, ALWAYS big supporters of the Second Amendment, this time ever their tone was different and that's when I made that post. We've had several school shootings recently, one just a few miles from where I live. All them one after another add up to where people ARE changing their mind. They ARE rethinking the whole gun owning thing.

Maybe it ever sounds like I am. But I can see where OTHER GUN OWNERS will vote with the left. I can see the left getting more and more of the Middle 60% leaving us in the dust. You've seen me say, I would rather lose a battle and win the war. Well like it or not but it's coming down to that. Sure people say give an inch and the "GUN GRAPERS" will take a mile. I'm NOT worried about those gun grapers, I'm worried about the Middle 60% that WILL side with them and they will when they have HAD ENOUGH.

Thank God, Trump is in office. He MIGHT have to give up something to save the rest. But think what we would be talking here if Hillary was in office, she would go after it all and not a couple things.

I would rather give up bumb stocks, stronger back ground checks, raise age and arm the teachers along with more security at the schools than LOSE the AR-15 rifle. It shows the Middle 60% we are SERIOUS about doing something. Is all that going to end it???> Of course not, NOTHING will but if we don't do something all those other people WILL OUT VOTE us and do something we do NOT want.

I'll say one last thing. If we have another major school shooting THIS YEAR we will not be fighting for the AR-15 but the very Second Amendment itself. Then we WILL lose the war.
 
T

TheLBLman

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I've had very little time lately to engage in these debates,
but just want to say I believe Wildcat has "nailed it" with his assessment.

Whether we particularly "like" the NRA or not,
they are in fact the only major SIGNIFICANT group fighting for our 2nd Amendment rights.

I am now a Life Member of the NRA.

Now is a great time to encourage and help your family members join the NRA.

By the way, if AR-15-type guns get outlawed,
this ban WILL soon INCLUDE ALL semi-automatic rifles,
ultimately even .22 rimfires, and ultimately even your semi-auto shotguns.

All these anti-gun proposals are merely stepping stones,
just like ObamaCare was a stepping stone towards full-government universal health care.

The sponsors know they will not work, but they get things moving towards their ultimate goals
of banning all guns. That may not happen, but when it happens to 85% to 95% of all the current gun owners,
it becomes extremely expensive and almost totally without any true freedom to own guns,
much less to actually go shoot them.

Thanks, Wildcat, good post.
 
Aquaholic

Aquaholic

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I understand what you are saying ... But that's how they are chipping away at the 2nd Amendment ... A little at a time ... Name one other Amendment in the Constitution that you have to have a license and a background check to exercise ? NONE!
While I am not opposed to background checks and Carry Permits as I see that as Common Sense gun laws, the 2nd Amendment is ALREADY being Infringed upon ... WE have to remember it's not the tool (gun) they are using to commit the these heinous crimes that is the problem ... There are other firearms that if used would inflict more damage and casualties in these situations ... The AR 15 has been around for many decades ... So it's not the tool ... It's how and who is using that tool that has changed.
That's the PROBLEM that needs to be addressed...

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T

TheLBLman

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Aquaholic":3ju4qabt said:
... WE have to remember it's not the tool (gun) they are using to commit the these heinous crimes that is the problem ... There are other firearms that if used would inflict more damage and casualties in these situations ... The AR 15 has been around for many decades ... So it's not the tool ... It's how and who is using that tool that has changed.
That's the PROBLEM that needs to be addressed...
While I agree with you here, we are preaching to the choir.

I told someone yesterday that if this young killer had been using any of our turkey shotguns,
very likely would have been a similar if not worse outcome in the number of casualties.

As Wildcat is trying to point out, OUR problem-solving-thinking needs to shift,
like more in line to "preaching" more to that middle 60% than to ourselves.
It is better to lose a single battle or two than the war.
 
Good time Charlie

Good time Charlie

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In the eyes of the Libs, if they can put restrictions or even ban the use of black guns they would be happy.

It has got to a point where we need to bend a little, as Wildcat has pointed out so well.

We can jump up and down and holler and quite frankly it has gotten to the point that something has to be done.

I to felt so eery different about this one,I think this country is fed up

I think the bottom line of Wildcats post needs to be read.It is so true.
 
TNGunsmoke

TNGunsmoke

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I put this in the other thread, but it bears repeating here....

The big problem I see, is it is the gun owner that must always give in this argument. We gave in the National Firearms Act of 1934, We gave more in the Gun Control Act of 1968, we gave again with Clinton's Executive Orders, The Lautenberg Act,, The Smith and Wesson/HUD agreements, The Brady Laws, and the School Safety and Law Enforcement Improvement Act. It is always the gun owner that must give because it's "reasonable", be cause it's "For the good of us all", and "For the Children, Think of the Children; for God's sake", It's a never ending give of one little piece of freedom after another, and the anti's will never be satisfied until they have all the guns in the hands of criminals and the government, and we'll still get the blame because we held out for far too long to give in. And we all know the government never gives back any right or piece thereof that they have ever taken.
 
Aquaholic

Aquaholic

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AGAIN it's not the tool that was used ... But who used it ... And the soft target it was used at.
This is exactly how they will get our guns in the end ... Not overnight but one at a time ... Bumpstocks are not protected under the 2nd Amendment

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TNGunsmoke

TNGunsmoke

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Aquaholic":2windbmj said:
AGAIN it's not the tool that was used ... But who used it ... And the soft target it was used at.
This is exactly how they will get our guns in the end ... Not overnight but one at a time ... Bumpstocks are not protected under the 2nd Amendment

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Preaching to the Choir... :)
 
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poorhunter

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I’m not disagreeing, but asking a question...

Are you saying it’s ok to not argue for the truth and what is right to win a debate or an election? I would argue that compromising the truth to win erodes that truth which erodes the conscious which erodes the culture, which is where we are. I think we can stand on the truth and let that work itself out.
 
MUP

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We've been losing this "war" from the beginning. Battles be darned, this war is lost already from the way some of you are talking. Why not just get it over with and give completely in? It's a lost cause anyway, right? Like Aquaholic said, we've been giving in(conservatives) from the get go, never the other way around. Next Amendment.
 
Aquaholic

Aquaholic

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poorhunter":95wee6hw said:
I’m not disagreeing, but asking a question...

Are you saying it’s ok to not argue for the truth and what is right to win a debate or an election? I would argue that compromising the truth to win erodes that truth which erodes the conscious which erodes the culture, which is where we are. I think we can stand on the truth and let that work itself out.
Thank you ...

I maybe preaching to the choir ... But it seems part of the choir is singing off key...

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T

TheLBLman

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Wildcat":1e2i0o46 said:
. . . . the gun owners are making the VERY SAME MISTAKE Hillary made.
They are FORGETTING about the most important people.
The Middle 60%.

The right has ALWAYS supported the gun owners and the Second Amendment,
the left has always been against both.
So that's the left, 20% and the right 20%, that leaves 60% of the population in the MIDDLE.
Donald Trump saw that 2 years ago and pulled in more of them than Hillary did, she FORGOT about them.

I would rather give up bumb stocks, (have) stronger back ground checks, raise age and arm the teachers along with more security at the schools . . . . .
. . . . . than LOSE the AR-15 rifle.
It shows the Middle 60% we are SERIOUS about doing something.

. . . . if we don't do something all those other people WILL OUT VOTE us and do something we do NOT want.
Lose the AR-15, you are then on the road to losing all semi-auto firearms,
then all "pumps", then all "bolt" guns that can be quickly re-chambered,
then ultimately,
the "PHOBIA" of guns has the majority of voters.

It's irrational, not logical, but that is the nature of most phobias.

Those of us without any phobias, have a hard time even trying to understand these people's fears,
but make no mistake, it is a real fear.

Unfortunately, many career democratic politicians are seeing spreading the gun phobia as a great way to get more votes for themselves,
and that is ultimately what this is all about (for them).
Logical thoughts and ideas rarely overcome these irrational fears.
 
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TheLBLman

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I think part of what Wildcat was suggesting
was it may be better to lose a bump-stock
than an AR-15.

Aquaholic":2a6kendt said:
Bumpstocks are not protected under the 2nd Amendment.
I don't know if this is true or not,
but maybe some additional restriction on who can purchase a "bumpstock"
might stifle some of the calls to ban particular weapons?

Just trying to put this discussion in the context of there already being additional restrictions to purchase or own fully automatic weapons, and the bumpstock certainly is seen as a device that bridges the gap between semi and full auto.
 
Aquaholic

Aquaholic

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Good time Charlie":322349hd said:
In the eyes of the Libs, if they can put restrictions or even ban the use of black guns they would be happy.

It has got to a point where we need to bend a little, as Wildcat has pointed out so well.

We can jump up and down and holler and quite frankly it has gotten to the point that something has to be done.

I to felt so eery different about this one,I think this country is fed up

I think the bottom line of Wildcats post needs to be read.It is so true.
I agree 100% something needs to be done...
But doing the right thing versus doing the wrong thing just because we need to do SOMETHING isn't how it needs to be done.
Address the REAL PROBLEM ... Not just a feel good measure to placate folks

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R

rtaylor

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The problem comes from trying to appease the 60% by giving up something. Many are willing to give up the bump stock to lessen the damage. That’s probably because you don’t have a bump stock and don’t care about them. That’s the danger. Where do you draw the line? Maybe they are happy today but tomorrow they want your duck gun and the next they want your evil high powered deer gun. You cannot make the ignorant happy. You have to fight every battle whether it is your gun or accessory or not because tomorrow it will be.
 
Aquaholic

Aquaholic

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MUP":bnr8x810 said:
We've been losing this "war" from the beginning. Battles be darned, this war is lost already from the way some of you are talking. Why not just get it over with and give completely in? It's a lost cause anyway, right? Like Aquaholic said, we've been giving in(conservatives) from the get go, never the other way around. Next Amendment.
Once we lose the 2nd Amendment the rest will be easy to take away ...

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T

TheLBLman

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rtaylor":2mg0013f said:
The problem comes from trying to appease the 60% by giving up something. Many are willing to give up the bump stock to lessen the damage. That’s probably because you don’t have a bump stock and don’t care about them. That’s the danger. Where do you draw the line? Maybe they are happy today but tomorrow they want your duck gun and the next they want your evil high powered deer gun. You cannot make the ignorant happy. You have to fight every battle whether it is your gun or accessory or not because tomorrow it will be.
I do not disagree with you.

But we do have a real dilemma
where our logical thoughts are being pitted against the raw emotions of gun phobias,
which seems to be highly contagious, despite all our logical attempts to educate the ignorant masses.

Yes, we need to keep doing what we do, and do even more, but . . . . . .

It may become we choose to do something we don't want to do (say, additional restriction on bump stocks)
vs.
we are forced to do something worse (say, additional restrictions on semi-autos)
which then leads to far worse.

And I'm not saying this just because I don't personally own a "bump" stock.
 
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poorhunter

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Aquaholic":2sucgu9t said:
MUP":2sucgu9t said:
We've been losing this "war" from the beginning. Battles be darned, this war is lost already from the way some of you are talking. Why not just get it over with and give completely in? It's a lost cause anyway, right? Like Aquaholic said, we've been giving in(conservatives) from the get go, never the other way around. Next Amendment.
Once we lose the 2nd Amendment the rest will be easy to take away ...

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Hence the staged brouhaha since the Parkland shooting...they were just waiting for their opportunity to push that very agenda. They know the 2nd Amendment won’t get repealed this time, but that’s what they ask for...get part way there...then wait and pounce the next time. They’ve trained that 60% (and growing) HOW to think and react.
 
Wildcat

Wildcat

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poorhunter":117xk0a3 said:
I’m not disagreeing, but asking a question...

Are you saying it’s ok to not argue for the truth and what is right to win a debate or an election? I would argue that compromising the truth to win erodes that truth which erodes the conscious which erodes the culture, which is where we are. I think we can stand on the truth and let that work itself out.

When they OUT VOTE YOU then what the heck are you going to do????

It doesn't mater if it's an election or a bill passing or ever an ANOTHER AMENDMENT. The day they out vote you then YOU LOSE.

Nobody here is compromising the truth. I'm telling the truth. Like said by another member,some gun owners cannot see the forest for the trees. They are paying too much attention on the small trees to see the whole forest.

FORGET the ant-guners. Help get as much as the Middle 60% as we can. THAT is who the anti-guners are going after.

One more school shooting and the Second Amendment itself WILL be under FULL ATTACK.
 

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