March 24 TFWC Commission Meeting

Andy S.

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For turkey season dates discussion, scroll to 1:01:14 - 1:02:55, and 1:11:04 - 1:14:25. This should help clear up the confusion that is so prevalent in the public. TWRA (biologists and such) has absolutely nothing to do with 2023 spring season dates. If I have heard that misstatement once, I have heard it a thousand times over last few months. Generally speaking, many SW TN turkey hunters are not happy, and they are pointing the finger at TWRA.


 

Andy S.

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Do have a sense for what the reason(s) are for the SW TN hunters to be bent out of shape?
Not really, other than many do not like change, many in SW TN think the best hunting is first 2 weeks in April, and a few were totally in the dark about the changes. One guy told me he answered a TWRA/UTK survey recently and had to attach 2 sheets of printer paper to capture his disgust with moving the turkey season back two weeks.
 

Southern Sportsman

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think "the first two weeks" will always be perceived by many as the best time to hunt — whether that's the first two weeks of April or the last two weeks of April. In the past, by April 15 you were hunting turkeys that had already been hunted for two weeks, a lot of gobblers had already been killed (something like 80% of the annual harvest), and some hunters had already tagged out. This year you'll be hunting unpressured birds AND more hens will be nesting, so less natural competition. IMO, thinking that hunting 4/15 this year will be the same as hunting 4/15 in years past is shortsighted.
 
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30-06 type of guy

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think "the first two weeks" will always be perceived by many as the best time to hunt — whether that's the first two weeks or the last two weeks of April. In the past, by April 15 you were hunting turkeys that had already been hunted for two weeks, a lot of gobblers had already been killed (something like 80% of the annual harvest), and some hunters had already tagged out. This year you'll be hunting unpressured birds AND more hens will be nesting, so less natural competition. IMO, thinking that hunting 4/15 this year will be the same as hunting 4/15 in years past is shortsighted.
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deerfever

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I think what most are upset about is the fact that there has been absolutely zero evidence from anywhere that a two week delay helps and our turkey coordinator recommended no change at this point. In fact the study by Dr. Harper in TN documents no reproductive benefits whatsoever between delayed and non delayed areas. So you lose the first two weeks of April to hunt the last two weeks of May for no benefits at all? The only gain is nonresident hunters possibly not showing up as much. Nonresident hunters should have nothing to do with our season setting dates at all and didn't when commission changed the dates it was just a random change on day two of the meeting. . Put a quota on non residents the first two weeks like Mississippi does, limit them to 1 bird in the first 10 days on public like Alabama does. Alabama even opens private land one week March 25, and public the next April 1, also Bama allows no decoys the first 10 days, Make the first week residents only on public. All kinds of things to do but you never set a season based off non residents, you fix the problem for your residents and move forward. Great hatch here in TN and according to this article the best hatch in years in Mississippi. No delay in either? How did it happen? Weather..... A Man will just have to wait until the 15th and get after them Memorial day weekend, nothing you can do about this season. Good luck the 15th!
 

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megalomaniac

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I think what most are upset about is the fact that there has been absolutely zero evidence from anywhere that a two week delay helps and our turkey coordinator recommended no change at this point.
This is exactly right. While sportsmen saw the population declining in TN, TWRA denied it. When the population REALLY started to decline 5y ago, TWRA biologist finally admitted there was a problem.

Yet year after year after year, they recommended NO changes to the season to slow the bleeding. Perhaps there is NOTHING we can do to keep turkeys from becoming extinct, TWRA failed miserably on 1st denying there was a population decline, then after admitting there was a population decline, attributed it to just normal fluctuations in turkey numbers. THEN... after a decade of decline, they said, oh $HIT, they are really declining, but we recommend NO changes to the season, because we don't think anything we can do will stop the decline, so just kill em all.

Well, those of us who love turkeys MORE than TWRA said this $hit of doing nothing HAS to stop. We aren't biologists, but we are going to throw a bazillion darts at the dartboard and hope one of them stick. And that what hundreds if not thousands of folks in TN who love turkeys did was we lambasted the commissioners and told them that turkeys are going to go back to pre 1985 levels if something doesn't happen. TWRA wants to maintain status quo, which is failing miserably. Let's try pushing season back 2 weeks and see if that makes a difference in nesting success. Some wanted to lower the limits even further, many wanted to make harvest of jakes illegal (me included). Others wanted to make the use of decoys illegal. All of which have sound THEORETICAL biological benefits, but admittedly, have zero proven real world benefits on the population. But again the alternative is DO NOTHING as TWRA recommended.

If turkeys die out, at least I want to know that we at least attempted to adapt reactively (I think most of the decline could have been prevented PROACTIVELY if the decline was admitted by the TWRA 'biologist' at the time in the late 2000s).

So yup, there is zero proof 2023 reg changes will make a difference. But there is a decade of proof that status quo will result in the wild turkey population being reduced to unhuntable numbers in the majority of the state in the next decade.
 

deerfever

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This is exactly right. While sportsmen saw the population declining in TN, TWRA denied it. When the population REALLY started to decline 5y ago, TWRA biologist finally admitted there was a problem.

Yet year after year after year, they recommended NO changes to the season to slow the bleeding. Perhaps there is NOTHING we can do to keep turkeys from becoming extinct, TWRA failed miserably on 1st denying there was a population decline, then after admitting there was a population decline, attributed it to just normal fluctuations in turkey numbers. THEN... after a decade of decline, they said, oh $HIT, they are really declining, but we recommend NO changes to the season, because we don't think anything we can do will stop the decline, so just kill em all.

Well, those of us who love turkeys MORE than TWRA said this $hit of doing nothing HAS to stop. We aren't biologists, but we are going to throw a bazillion darts at the dartboard and hope one of them stick. And that what hundreds if not thousands of folks in TN who love turkeys did was we lambasted the commissioners and told them that turkeys are going to go back to pre 1985 levels if something doesn't happen. TWRA wants to maintain status quo, which is failing miserably. Let's try pushing season back 2 weeks and see if that makes a difference in nesting success. Some wanted to lower the limits even further, many wanted to make harvest of jakes illegal (me included). Others wanted to make the use of decoys illegal. All of which have sound THEORETICAL biological benefits, but admittedly, have zero proven real world benefits on the population. But again the alternative is DO NOTHING as TWRA recommended.

If turkeys die out, at least I want to know that we at least attempted to adapt reactively (I think most of the decline could have been prevented PROACTIVELY if the decline was admitted by the TWRA 'biologist' at the time in the late 2000s).

So yup, there is zero proof 2023 reg changes will make a difference. But there is a decade of proof that status quo will result in the wild turkey population being reduced to unhuntable numbers in the majority of the state in the next decade.
How did we have the great hatch last year? What changed? The weather was better for it, no one can control that. TWRA actually lowered the limit from 5 to 3. 4 and a bonus bird at one point. 4 was too many , I think we all agree. Twra started a 6 year study in counties that had declined to see what was going on, shortened their season and moved it to a two bird limit in those counties. To say they did nothing is not exactly correct. The TWRA simply ask to wait on the information that was coming from a 6 year study that lots of time , effort and money had been put in before making any more changes, to me that seemed like the logical thing to do. We kept saying all those years we were waiting on the information to make more decisions, so why not wait 6 more months? Why didn't we just delay the season 3 years ago if we weren't going to wait on the results and end the study and save time/money. The information came in December and showed a two week delay has no benefits. Also to say the whole state has declined is not exactly correct lots of areas of the state have more turkeys now then they ever have. I see it first hand more birds in the counties I hunt than the last 42 years, I used to have to drive hours to hear one, I couldn't sleep the night before a trip to LBL hunt as finally a chance to hear one possibly. Some areas had a natural turkey explosion as biologist refer and then leveled off to carrying capacity . Other areas didn't take off near as well and are now still climbing it seems. I respect your thoughts and knowledge as I enjoy your post and insights , I hope the two week delay makes a huge difference for the areas that have decline and all of us for that matter. We simply have a difference of opinion, no big deal at all that happens all the time. As of now the Dr. Harper study results shows absolutely no difference in reproductive success between delayed and non delayed areas in TN. That's what I am basing my opinion on, along with the great hatch we just had with no delay, and steadiest harvest numbers in the union since 2000 . If he had come out and said it made a huge difference , more hens got bred etc.... I would be all over it . If Arkansas who has delayed season for years now had birds crawling all over, I am all over it. But for now just seeing the hatch we had with no delay, Mississippi hatch with no delay , makes me believe, Weather, predators and habitat will determine our hatch again this year just like this past one and all previous years since 1986 when we had the same opening dates.I am not alone with this opinion as many biologist and hunters feel that same way. I promise this if evidence changes and makes me believe the two week delay is needed and has benefits , I will always be man enough to admit when my thoughts are wrong . As far as limit goes two doesn't bother me at all but the actual facts are 70 percent of people only killed 1, over 90 percent 1 or 2. A very small percentage killed 3 . TWRA presented these facts at the meeting, you actually aren't making any difference that matters by changing the limit. Besides that if the two week theory is correct most hens are bred, so why reduce the limit? Gobblers have done their business, that is the theory as I understand it. Again it's just a difference of opinion, I guarantee I care as much and will do anything to make sure our turkeys are here for future generations but I just do not agree with the delay at this point with no evidence it helps with anything. I think if they had just went with the original motion to move the season back 1 week at the meeting, the commission wouldn't be getting the pushback they are now as was evident from the meeting above. Juvenile would have been this weekend, with season April 8th, to me that was a great compromise for all involved. It's over now so come on April 15th!
 

prstide

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This is exactly right. While sportsmen saw the population declining in TN, TWRA denied it. When the population REALLY started to decline 5y ago, TWRA biologist finally admitted there was a problem.

Yet year after year after year, they recommended NO changes to the season to slow the bleeding. Perhaps there is NOTHING we can do to keep turkeys from becoming extinct, TWRA failed miserably on 1st denying there was a population decline, then after admitting there was a population decline, attributed it to just normal fluctuations in turkey numbers. THEN... after a decade of decline, they said, oh $HIT, they are really declining, but we recommend NO changes to the season, because we don't think anything we can do will stop the decline, so just kill em all.

Well, those of us who love turkeys MORE than TWRA said this $hit of doing nothing HAS to stop. We aren't biologists, but we are going to throw a bazillion darts at the dartboard and hope one of them stick. And that what hundreds if not thousands of folks in TN who love turkeys did was we lambasted the commissioners and told them that turkeys are going to go back to pre 1985 levels if something doesn't happen. TWRA wants to maintain status quo, which is failing miserably. Let's try pushing season back 2 weeks and see if that makes a difference in nesting success. Some wanted to lower the limits even further, many wanted to make harvest of jakes illegal (me included). Others wanted to make the use of decoys illegal. All of which have sound THEORETICAL biological benefits, but admittedly, have zero proven real world benefits on the population. But again the alternative is DO NOTHING as TWRA recommended.

If turkeys die out, at least I want to know that we at least attempted to adapt reactively (I think most of the decline could have been prevented PROACTIVELY if the decline was admitted by the TWRA 'biologist' at the time in the late 2000s).

So yup, there is zero proof 2023 reg changes will make a difference. But there is a decade of proof that status quo will result in the wild turkey population being reduced to unhuntable numbers in the majority of the state in the next decade.
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prstide

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I think what most are upset about is the fact that there has been absolutely zero evidence from anywhere that a two week delay helps and our turkey coordinator recommended no change at this point. In fact the study by Dr. Harper in TN documents no reproductive benefits whatsoever between delayed and non delayed areas. So you lose the first two weeks of April to hunt the last two weeks of May for no benefits at all? The only gain is nonresident hunters possibly not showing up as much. Nonresident hunters should have nothing to do with our season setting dates at all and didn't when commission changed the dates it was just a random change on day two of the meeting. . Put a quota on non residents the first two weeks like Mississippi does, limit them to 1 bird in the first 10 days on public like Alabama does. Alabama even opens private land one week March 25, and public the next April 1, also Bama allows no decoys the first 10 days, Make the first week residents only on public. All kinds of things to do but you never set a season based off non residents, you fix the problem for your residents and move forward. Great hatch here in TN and according to this article the best hatch in years in Mississippi. No delay in either? How did it happen? Weather..... A Man will just have to wait until the 15th and get after them Memorial day weekend, nothing you can do about this season. Good luck the 15th!
I've admittedly not read Dr Harper's research study. When was it conducted and over what period of time?
 

MickThompson

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The one big takeaway from the UT study for me has been the lack of quality nesting and brooding cover. 40 some odd % of the nests in less than 10% of the landscape. And more than 10% of the nests are lost to mowing. 10% doesn't sound like much but compound that across a few years and you've easily got the difference between a growing population and one fading out
 

deerfever

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I've admittedly not read Dr Harper's research study. When was it conducted and over what period of time?
Last 6 years in the counties that seen declines. Someone posted a podcast on here of his finding. Here is a brief synopsis.
 

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scn

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This is exactly right. While sportsmen saw the population declining in TN, TWRA denied it. When the population REALLY started to decline 5y ago, TWRA biologist finally admitted there was a problem.

Yet year after year after year, they recommended NO changes to the season to slow the bleeding. Perhaps there is NOTHING we can do to keep turkeys from becoming extinct, TWRA failed miserably on 1st denying there was a population decline, then after admitting there was a population decline, attributed it to just normal fluctuations in turkey numbers. THEN... after a decade of decline, they said, oh $HIT, they are really declining, but we recommend NO changes to the season, because we don't think anything we can do will stop the decline, so just kill em all.

Well, those of us who love turkeys MORE than TWRA said this $hit of doing nothing HAS to stop. We aren't biologists, but we are going to throw a bazillion darts at the dartboard and hope one of them stick. And that what hundreds if not thousands of folks in TN who love turkeys did was we lambasted the commissioners and told them that turkeys are going to go back to pre 1985 levels if something doesn't happen. TWRA wants to maintain status quo, which is failing miserably. Let's try pushing season back 2 weeks and see if that makes a difference in nesting success. Some wanted to lower the limits even further, many wanted to make harvest of jakes illegal (me included). Others wanted to make the use of decoys illegal. All of which have sound THEORETICAL biological benefits, but admittedly, have zero proven real world benefits on the population. But again the alternative is DO NOTHING as TWRA recommended.

If turkeys die out, at least I want to know that we at least attempted to adapt reactively (I think most of the decline could have been prevented PROACTIVELY if the decline was admitted by the TWRA 'biologist' at the time in the late 2000s).

So yup, there is zero proof 2023 reg changes will make a difference. But there is a decade of proof that status quo will result in the wild turkey population being reduced to unhuntable numbers in the majority of the state in the next decade.
Amen
 

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