March 24 TFWC Commission Meeting

[scn]

Unbelievable the whining on here about the delayed season. I, unfortunately, am afraid it it too little, too late.

I am ready to hunt as well. But, I would like to see the turkey population stop circling the bowl. I see ZERO way that the changes implemented this year can hurt the TURKEY population. I can see some things that I think stand a chance to make things better. I am willing to give up some of my prime hunting time to at least see if it can make a difference.

I feel sorry for the entitled that care more about their immediate wants than having a turkey population to hunt in the future.

 

[deerhunter10]

Personally I don't care if we have less opportunity if we have more turkeys in the future. As said above this April 15th is going to be much different then last April 15th. This is the first time in many years I agree with the bag limit and I can completely understand the start of the season in many many years. I wish twra jumped sooner but better late then never. (Hopefully)

I can't stand commission meetings at any level.

 

[ADR]

The one big takeaway from the UT study for me has been the lack of quality nesting and brooding cover. 40 some odd % of the nests in less than 10% of the landscape. And more than 10% of the nests are lost to mowing. 10% doesn't sound like much but compound that across a few years and you've easily got the difference between a growing population and one fading out

I'm not trying to debate their study results, but anecdotally I don't think farming/mowing practices have changed in the last 20 years. I am all for trying to find reasons for the population decline but some just don't make sense.

 

[MickThompson]

I'm not trying to debate their study results, but anecdotally I don't think farming/mowing practices have changed in the last 20 years. I am all for trying to find reasons for the population decline but some just don't make sense.

Regardless of whether or not more mowing is getting done (I definitely think it is), it's like leaving a question blank on a test. As long as everything else goes right, you can get an ok grade. But if it doesn't (nest predators perhaps), or the teacher puts fewer questions on the test (loss of habitat), that one blank question can sink you, and it's often one of the easiest things to fix.

 

[Andy S.]

The decision has been made for 2023 and TWRA recommends no change to turkey season dates in 2024. My biggest concern at this point in time is if the current regulations will stay in place long enough to accurately assess and measure impacts, as well as consider all other factors (nesting habitat, weather, etc) during the time period. I am not holding my breath with the Commissioners calling the shots (one wants this, another wants that, which one is the loudest senior ranking Commissioner in the meeting, etc). No one likes one knee-jerk reaction after the other from decision makers.

On a different note, most lay people in SW TN despised the extreme hot drought we had last year (Jun/July/Aug). Based on a small sample size of trail camera data and visual observations in late summer, it appears our poults THRIVED, with some significance likely tied to this one single extreme weather event, so to speak. Nesting habitat and predator's were a constant last year, when compared to prior years, and last summer was just two years after statewide record recorded harvest of 40k male birds (likely higher). Like others, at the end of the day, I want turkeys for our grandkids, but I am not convinced any SINGLE measure will make a dramatic impact. It's multifactorial and hopefully we can align enough measures to make a favorable impact for the years to come. Time will tell.

 

[AT Hiker]

I've admittedly not read Dr Harper's research study. When was it conducted and over what period of time?

Another important question would be; what did the control group see?

There was a control group, right?

 

[megalomaniac]

How did we have the great hatch last year? What changed? The weather was better for it, no one can control that. TWRA actually lowered the limit from 5 to 3. 4 and a bonus bird at one point. 4 was too many , I think we all agree. Twra started a 6 year study in counties that had declined to see what was going on, shortened their season and moved it to a two bird limit in those counties. To say they did nothing is not exactly correct. The TWRA simply ask to wait on the information that was coming from a 6 year study that lots of time , effort and money had been put in before making any more changes, to me that seemed like the logical thing to do. We kept saying all those years we were waiting on the information to make more decisions, so why not wait 6 more months? Why didn't we just delay the season 3 years ago if we weren't going to wait on the results and end the study and save time/money. The information came in December and showed a two week delay has no benefits. Also to say the whole state has declined is not exactly correct lots of areas of the state have more turkeys now then they ever have. I see it first hand more birds in the counties I hunt than the last 42 years, I used to have to drive hours to hear one, I couldn't sleep the night before a trip to LBL hunt as finally a chance to hear one possibly. Some areas had a natural turkey explosion as biologist refer and then leveled off to carrying capacity . Other areas didn't take off near as well and are now still climbing it seems. I respect your thoughts and knowledge as I enjoy your post and insights , I hope the two week delay makes a huge difference for the areas that have decline and all of us for that matter. We simply have a difference of opinion, no big deal at all that happens all the time. As of now the Dr. Harper study results shows absolutely no difference in reproductive success between delayed and non delayed areas in TN. That's what I am basing my opinion on, along with the great hatch we just had with no delay, and steadiest harvest numbers in the union since 2000 . If he had come out and said it made a huge difference , more hens got bred etc.... I would be all over it . If Arkansas who has delayed season for years now had birds crawling all over, I am all over it. But for now just seeing the hatch we had with no delay, Mississippi hatch with no delay , makes me believe, Weather, predators and habitat will determine our hatch again this year just like this past one and all previous years since 1986 when we had the same opening dates.I am not alone with this opinion as many biologist and hunters feel that same way. I promise this if evidence changes and makes me believe the two week delay is needed and has benefits , I will always be man enough to admit when my thoughts are wrong . As far as limit goes two doesn't bother me at all but the actual facts are 70 percent of people only killed 1, over 90 percent 1 or 2. A very small percentage killed 3 . TWRA presented these facts at the meeting, you actually aren't making any difference that matters by changing the limit. Besides that if the two week theory is correct most hens are bred, so why reduce the limit? Gobblers have done their business, that is the theory as I understand it. Again it's just a difference of opinion, I guarantee I care as much and will do anything to make sure our turkeys are here for future generations but I just do not agree with the delay at this point with no evidence it helps with anything. I think if they had just went with the original motion to move the season back 1 week at the meeting, the commission wouldn't be getting the pushback they are now as was evident from the meeting above. Juvenile would have been this weekend, with season April 8th, to me that was a great compromise for all involved. It's over now so come on April 15th!

So... the real question is 'why when turkeys are reintroduced to a new area does the population explode for a period of time, then collapse?' There is no such thing as 'carrying capacity' when it comes to turkeys... you can literally have 500 in a flock on 1000 acres and none will starve... because their diet is probably one of the most varied of any animal species. There is a component of 'social carrying capacity' when it comes to nesting, as the most dominant hens simply will not tolerate another hen to nest within a certain distance of her nest. But what we are seeing is that in some of those places that had turkeys 15 years ago during the population explosion are now completely devoid of turkeys (LBL is getting close). It's my opinion that in areas where turkeys are novel, they explode in population because the natural predators in that area just do not view them as a potential food source. Over time, they absolutely do.

For any chance for turkeys to hang on in an area, annual spring reproduction is THE key. Multiple studies have confirmed you need a 2.2 PPH during August brood surveys reproduction rate (in an unhunted population) just to maintain current population levels. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but by my recollection, we've only had 2 years in the past decade with reproduction rates above 2.2 PPH. The crux of the problem is WHY???. Back in the 90s and early 2000s we were running over 4PPH recruitment rates... which resulted in an absolute explosion in number of birds. I don't know why hens are no longer hatching poults as successfully as years past... but they simply aren't. Weather is THE most important factor when it comes to nesting success... but it just isn't that alone. All the other factors that influence reproduction come into play for site specific flocks.

But certainly, I've witnessed winter flocks of 300 birds being reduced to 30 birds in just 4 or 5 years.

This may very well be what is going to be 'normal' after a decade and a half after reintroduction no matter what we do. If that's the case, those areas that had a handful of birds will have NO birds. And we have seen that already in many locales.across the US. It does make one wonder if hunting pressure is the reason... as those areas that were unhunted during restoration phases had phenomenal reproduction rates, but then declined 15 years after hinting was allowed.

I know... lots of rambling thoughts...

As.far as limits on spring gobblers, I don't think it matters if toms are killed after the majority of breeding has occurred. From a selfish standpoint, I prefer a lower limit, simply because there are more toms left on the landscape to call in later in the season. I don't have to kill a bird to feel I've won, just be able to call one in. I LOVE to eat them, but it's no big deal to me if I eat 4 or 5 a year instead of 9 or 10 (hunting multiple states and multiple kids hunting). I just want to get in the game, whip them at the game, and know I beat them. But it's no fun not even being able to get in the game at all.

 

[megalomaniac]

Another important question would be; what did the control group see?

There was a control group, right?

My county was in the 'control group'... AFTER the population had already collapsed and there was a 45% harvest decline.

Pretty easy to prove no difference between the experimental group and the control group if the two groups were actually the same!

Now I'm talking the original study... if you are talking comparing the southern middle TN counties which had a 2w delay in season last year compared to the rest of the state... well I don't know about that.

 

[MickThompson]

There are other kinds of carrying capacity. Space can be limiting. When birds are overcrowded, stress from competition and diseases can be the controlling factors and those are far beyond the reach of any state agency

 

[deerfever]

Another important question would be; what did the control group see?

There was a control group, right?

Andy had posted a link under the thread titled dogwoods that you can watch all about it. I remember the two other biologist on the podcast being impressed with how comprehensive the study was. # of hens, nest, delayed/non delayed areas, # of years of the study. Dr. Harper gives all the information. I am not tech savvy enough to post the podcast but it is under that dogwood thread. Very interesting watch, I just don't remember all the particulars .

 

[tellico4x4]

My county was in the experimental group. Saw increase in poults both years. Did the delay cause that? Have no idea...

Have a big enough piece of property (3500 acres) and part of a conglomerate of over 12,000 contingous acres in that we never saw the extreme decline others did. Have managed the number of birds killed past 21 years and never been a Jake killed since I ve had it. Usually kill 10-12 a year off property. Could kill more but everyone is happy with that so why do it? Have been a few killed on plots on rainy days & by youngsters. No reaping & few decoys ever used. Have lots of food plots, clear cuts, thinned pines, hardwood hollows & pine plantations. Drought last year played havoc on our plots but was great for baby turkeys. Gobblers are only on us in spring & summer, but tons of hens stay year round. Wish I knew the answer but happy being the anomaly.

 

[fairchaser]

The interesting part about the season delay is that it will likely work but for completely the wrong reasons. I doubt it will impact the hatch very much if at all but it will definitely get fewer gobblers killed with an added insurance of a lower limit. Some of the attraction of turkey hunting for me is getting out in the woods when Spring is starting up. Dogwoods in bloom and chiggers and ticks at bay; cool morning air to breathe and gobblers sounding off in every direction. Two weeks later, everything has greened up and visibility is down. The sound of a gobbler in the far distance no longer detectable. By 9:00 am, the sun is up and the locusts are cranking up. The idea of waiting for a gobbler to leave the hens he flew down with becomes less attractive. Bottom line is fewer gobblers will be killed and the powers that be will be slapping each other on the back about how effective their delayed season strategy worked!

 

[deerhunter10]

The decline is death by a thousand cuts. But the more and more we personally go it boils down to habitat I believe more than anything. Our best farm was down last year more than ever. But we neglected the habitat more for turkeys gearing more for deer. (Dumb on our part) starting last summer after season we really emphasize turkeys and over the winter and so far our numbers are coming back. Dumb and hard headed decisions the last 3 to 5 years hurt us. We will not be hunting that place this year. We are blessed with several properties and quite a bit of acres for tennessee and we can manage it, we have the equipment and the finances to do it. I would much rather these meetings be more geared towards habitat on public land and more research and talking about what practices have been proved to work and working theories. At the end of the day I love turkey hunting but I love deer more the year round chess game we play with them. But great turkey habitat is great deer habitat as well. Great deer habitat doesn't translate to turkeys always. I also think patience with these studies are going to very important. They were late to take action and that pisses me off but (hopefully) better late than never. I hope the bag limit doesn't change for the foreseeable future. The start pushed back I think needs to be implemented for atleast 5 years. And the fall season should be gone for good.

 

[muddyboots]

The interesting part about the season delay is that it will likely work but for completely the wrong reasons. I doubt it will impact the hatch very much if at all but it will definitely get fewer gobblers killed with an added insurance of a lower limit. Some of the attraction of turkey hunting for me is getting out in the woods when Spring is starting up. Dogwoods in bloom and chiggers and ticks at bay; cool morning air to breathe and gobblers sounding off in every direction. Two weeks later, everything has greened up and visibility is down. The sound of a gobbler in the far distance no longer detectable. By 9:00 am, the sun is up and the locusts are cranking up. The idea of waiting for a gobbler to leave the hens he flew down with becomes less attractive. Bottom line is fewer gobblers will be killed and the powers that be will be slapping each other on the back about how effective their delayed season strategy worked!

Boy you worded that well! Amen. Call it whining or whatever you want to but I only have so many Turkey seasons left and I don't want to give that up. I'll do anything else to help turkeys but I don't want to give that up. Make the limit 1 or whatever but I want to hunt early season. Jmo Jmo.

 

[Wrangler95]

Unbelievable the whining on here about the delayed season. I, unfortunately, am afraid it it too little, too late.

I am ready to hunt as well. But, I would like to see the turkey population stop circling the bowl. I see ZERO way that the changes implemented this year can hurt the TURKEY population. I can see some things that I think stand a chance to make things better. I am willing to give up some of my prime hunting time to at least see if it can make a difference.

I feel sorry for the entitled that care more about their immediate wants than having a turkey population to hunt in the future.

My thoughts excatly!!