Have I Killed Too Many Does?

[Howa]

I've got 108 acres in Montgomery County. I started hunting it in 2001. Starting in 2001 we've killed 2,5,4,3,7,12,and so far this year 4 deer. This is composed of 8 bucks and 29 antlerless deer,2 of which turned out to be buttons. In the last 1.5 years we've killed 16 deer, 15 of which were does. Have I killed too many does? It used to be really easy to see deer there, now they do not come out until last light. There is still tons of sign, tracks everywhere,etc, but they do not show themselves in the daytime anymore. Do I keep hammering them or let them walk for a year or two? How many deer can you kill off 108 acres? I need some advice.

 

[TX300mag]

You won't kill too many. They've simply adjusted the way bucks did when they were getting hammered statewide several years ago.

I'd say keep shooting every doe you see since you seem pretty serious.

As far as deer killed on 108 acres-no telling if your 108 acres is highly traveled with some good cover. My brother hunted a 40 acre tract and would kill up to 10 a year and they would just keep piling in.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

That is a downside of aggressive doe management unfortunately.

 

[fourwheeler431]

It sounds like they are becoming more nocturnal.

 

[BigGameGuy]

A common misconception with QDM is "you can't kill enough does."

That statement is very misleading because it all depends on the habitat. In some areas with excellent cover and food resources it is definitely is true, especially if surrounding properties do not maintain an adequate doe harvest. However if you have poor habitat that doesn't hold too many deer or if you maintain a high doe harvest and you and every neighbor shoots every doe you see, guess what...you may seriously reduce your deer population.

I have actually had a few calls where the caller would tell me, "I don't know what's going on, for the past four years we've been hammering every doe we've seen, the neighbors are hammering every doe, and the neighbors neighbor is hammering every doe, and now we're not seeing any deer...what the heck is going on?"

My reply: "That's because you probably killed all your deer sir."

Anyhow...back to your problem...

All too often people use blanket management statements (like shoot every doe you see) that may not pertain to your specific situation. The only way to know for sure is to run a trail camera census. Due to the abundant sign, it sounds as if you have not seriously hurt your deer herd. Try to get some annual census data and you will know for sure what your herd is doing. You can then begin to set goals such as "we need to take at least ten does this year" or "fawn recruitment was way down due to the poor weather so we'll take six does this year".

What it all boils down to is this...manage YOUR property as you think you should. Excellent TN deer habitat can easily support 25 deer per square mile but since you are only in control of just over 100 acres, you'll have to look at your neighbors habitat as well. If you have any questions, just ask, that's what we're here for.

 

[TX300mag]

There is still tons of sign, tracks everywhere,etc, but they do not show themselves in the daytime anymore.

Put up some trail cams and it will confirm your population is still there.

 

[muddyboots]

I dislike hunting properties with aggressive doe harvests unless you are lucky enough to be there that magical week when they are everywhere.

 

[BSK]

That is a downside of aggressive doe management unfortunately.

Exactly. Significant declines in doe sightings can be expected after several years of intense doe harvests.

 

[BSK]

I've got 108 acres in Montgomery County. I started hunting it in 2001. Starting in 2001 we've killed 2,5,4,3,7,12,and so far this year 4 deer. This is composed of 8 bucks and 29 antlerless deer,2 of which turned out to be buttons. In the last 1.5 years we've killed 16 deer, 15 of which were does. Have I killed too many does? It used to be really easy to see deer there, now they do not come out until last light. There is still tons of sign, tracks everywhere,etc, but they do not show themselves in the daytime anymore. Do I keep hammering them or let them walk for a year or two? How many deer can you kill off 108 acres? I need some advice.

The critical question is, "What are you trying to accomplish?" By that I mean, why are you hammering the does? What do you want to achieve?

By answering these questions you can then try and match your goals against current conditions. Have you achieved your goals?

 

[TX300mag]

If you're trying for a balanced herd, you've got about a 3:1 doe-buck kill ratio based on the numbers you've provided. I've practiced as high as 10:1 ratios in the past property I managed myself-and seen much higher. Do you have any idea what your ratio was in 2001 or what it is now?

The questions I would ask myself:
1. What is my buck-doe ratio
2. Am I seeing a shorter but more intense rut?
3. What is the age structure of my buck class?

 

[Howa]

The critical question is, "What are you trying to accomplish?" By that I mean, why are you hammering the does? What do you want to achieve?

I don't know, I guess that's why it ain't working. Everything I read said kill more does, so 15 out of the last 16 deer killed have been does. I have only seen probably 1 3.5 year old buck a year on this place. Several smaller bucks, but usually we catch a glimpse of a "good" buck once a year. I would like an opportunity to harvest bucks 3.5 or older regardless of antler size. If I have killed and seen as many does as I have, shouldn't I have some bucks of this caliber somewhere on this property? Something is breeding these does, right? I'm afraid that either I don't have any good bucks, or I'm raising bucks that I can't kill. There is 60 acres bordering me, that belongs to a church and is unhunted, it is an absolute Jurassic Park. I hunt my whole property and consider this other land to be "my" sanctuary. This is where the deer always come from and where I suspect the big boys live. Most of my stands are near this property line, so I can catch them coming and going from here. Is this a bad plan? Should I have my own sanctuary? How do I increase my daylight sightings, do I back off this property line to make them feel safer? I have never seen an estrous chase, a buck fight, more than 1 buck at a time, a rub bigger than my wrist,etc. I appreciate any help, comments, suggestions, etc.

 

[Howa]

The questions I would ask myself:
1. What is my buck-doe ratio
2. Am I seeing a shorter but more intense rut?
3. What is the age structure of my buck class?

1. I have no idea.
2. I have seen no indication of any rut whatsoever. I still have does with fawns and have seen only a couple of young bucks that were showing no interest in females at all.
3. I have no idea, all I see is young bucks.

 

[kholmes]

Its hard to compete with property that is not hunted. Are there areas on your property that you have never hunted? I would do the old switcheroo on the deer and hunt in places that have not been hunted in the past because they were not as an attractive spot to you. Alot of times the "bad looking" spots are better than the "good looking" spots. Good luck.

 

[fishboy1]

This is a pretty common occurance.

You need to follow BSK's advice and clearly identify your goals. Once you know what exactly you are trying to achieve, you can go about measuring to see if you are there.

That might involve adjusting your expectations, modifying your habitat, buying a bunch of trail cams to run a thorough census , or other steps.

Good luck killing a mature buck. They are crafty and hard to kill on ANY property! Just keep at it and move your stands freequently. Sooner or later you will score.

 

[TX300mag]

Keep in mind that by hammering the does you may also drive the bucks into a nocturnal pattern-especially the mature ones.

I hunt 160 acres-a little bigger than yours. We see VERY few 3.5 year old bucks. Usually 1-2 per year. Granted I'm not hunting a Houston or Stewart County type population, but a 3.5 year old buck is smart and VERY difficult to kill. A 4.5 is basically unkillable other than letting his guard down in a good rut.

I think you're doing good and not in any worse situation than the next guy. However, if you're frustrated and need a change I would do one of two things-

1. Lay off hammering the does for a year or two (nothing to do with the ratio-strictly pressure) and maybe even cut back hunting hours.

or

2. Do like kholmes said and change your tactics.

 

[BSK]

I hunt 160 acres-a little bigger than yours. We see VERY few 3.5 year old bucks. Usually 1-2 per year. Granted I'm not hunting a Houston or Stewart County type population, but a 3.5 year old buck is smart and VERY difficult to kill. A 4.5 is basically unkillable other than letting his guard down in a good rut.

I think you're doing good and not in any worse situation than the next guy.

TX300mag,

That was so good I had to repost it!

I hunt on a property most consider a very successful program. Yet we don't see 3 1/2+ bucks very often. Last year, we had 11 bucks 3 1/2+ on trail-cam. I saw none of them even after over 80 hours in a stand, primarily because I made bad stand choices. This year I've made better stand choices, but with 5 bucks 3 1/2+ on camera and after over 50 hours of stand time, I've only seen 2. Better stats for sure this year, but not what many hunters assume.

Too many hunters think hunting a well-managed QDM property is like what they see on hunting shows, with huge buck sightings almost daily. Maybe a few high-fenced or Iowa properties are like that, but I promise you not many are.

A successful QDM program is a lot of work and requires a lot of patience and hard hunting to pay dividends. That's why I say QDM isn't for everybody. How many hunters are willing to hunt year after year knowing they may only get a couple of sightings of a "shooter" buck each year?

 

[BSK]

The critical question is, "What are you trying to accomplish?" By that I mean, why are you hammering the does? What do you want to achieve?

I don't know, I guess that's why it ain't working.

I believe you've hit the nail on the head.

The first thing I ask every client--before I ever see their property--is "What are your goals? What do you want to accomplish with your property?" The setting of realistic goals should always be the first step.

The second step is to set up ways of measuring success. This generally means record-keeping, such as recording observation and/or harvest data. I also highly recommend running trail-cam censuses. Nothing tells you what is really going on with a deer herd like properly utilized trail cameras.

Lastly, a written herd and habitat management plan should be developed (and written is very important, as you need to be able refer back to it over and over). Specific actions should be detailed that will hopeful produce the desired results. The record-keeping will help measure whether those actions are really helping and how much.