Growing Mature Bucks

TheLBLman

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However in a hunting situation if the body appears larger than a typical 2.5 yo buck, I immediately get ready to shoot the buck regardless of antlers. When hunting thick woods, there is often a short window of time to analyze and make decisions. If I wait I often miss out on the opportunity to kill the buck.
Ah, but if you really want to greatly increase your own odds at a much larger antlered buck, typically both immediately and for next year, just raise your "shooter buck standard" a tad :)

If you really want to increase your opportunity at more 4 1/2 & older bucks with top-end antlers, it's imperative to give a pass especially to those top-end 2 1/2's (as well as the 3 1/2's). Your current thoughts make it likely you'll will immediately shoot most top-end 2 1/2's, as they will often appear to be good 3 1/2's.

Although my "target" bucks are 5 1/2 or older, I'm not opposed to personally shoot a 4 1/2. And not opposed to someone else taking younger, UNLESS, they complain about why they don't see more better antlered 3 1/2 & older bucks. Last year, my #1 target buck was 7 1/2, and ended the 2021 season without taking a buck. But very happy about a couple I allowed to grow older. The 7 1/2 apparently died, unrecovered, after he was wounded (by another hunter). I spent days trying to find his carcass.

At the moment, I don't even have a "target" buck, even though there are at least a couple known 5 1/2 or older (below average antlered) ones roaming some areas I hunt. But am still hunting, hoping something interesting to me, range shifts, as is often the case post-rut.

Also, regarding passing a particular buck, if there is an older one around, he will nearly always be trailing the one you're about to shoot (and often not within your vision). Exception to this can be when bucks leave nighttime feeding areas to quickly move into daytime bedding areas, as older deer (not just bucks) typically leave first.

There is often a short window of time to analyze and make decisions. If I wait I often miss out on the opportunity . . . . . to kill the buck.
At THAT moment, on THAT day.

On the other hand, you will often gain more of a different "opportunity" than you think you're losing. Quick decisions also often result in lasting regret.
 
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Ski

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Ah, but if you really want to greatly increase your own odds at a much larger antlered buck, typically both immediately and for next year, just raise your "shooter buck standard" a tad :)

If you really want to increase your opportunity at more 4 1/2 & older bucks with top-end antlers, it's imperative to give a pass especially to those top-end 2 1/2's (as well as the 3 1/2's). Your current thoughts make it likely you'll will immediately shoot most top-end 2 1/2's, as they will often appear to be good 3 1/2's.

Although my "target" bucks are 5 1/2 or older, I'm not opposed to personally shoot a 4 1/2. And not opposed to someone else taking younger, UNLESS, they complain about why they don't see more better antlered 3 1/2 & older bucks. Last year, my #1 target buck was 7 1/2, and ended the 2021 season without taking a buck. But very happy about a couple I allowed to grow older. The 7 1/2 apparently died, unrecovered, after he was wounded (by another hunter). I spent days trying to find his carcass.

At the moment, I don't even have a "target" buck, even though there are at least a couple known 5 1/2 or older (below average antlered) ones roaming some areas I hunt. But am still hunting, hoping something interesting to me, range shifts, as is often the case post-rut.

Also, regarding passing a particular buck, if there is an older one around, he will nearly always be trailing the one you're about to shoot (and often not within your vision). Exception to this can be when bucks leave nighttime feeding areas to quickly move into daytime bedding areas, as older deer (not just bucks) typically leave first.


At THAT moment, on THAT day.

On the other hand, you will often gain more of a different "opportunity" than you think you're losing. Quick decisions also often result in lasting regret.

Out of curiosity, how much acreage are you working/hunting?
 

TheLBLman

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Out of curiosity, how much acreage are you working/hunting?
The short answer is . . . . .
Not enough that the bucks don't spend more of their time off the property than on it during the rut.

The long answer is . . . . .
I'm ATTEMPTING to QDM-manage tracts ranging from 300 to over 3,000 contiguous acres.

The better answer is . . . . .

Believe it or not, having a better TN deer hunting opportunity than most TN hunters on private property, I still find myself having a better chance most years for a top-end mature buck on several different public lands I annually hunt (multiple TN counties). Keep in mind though, "top end" in TN is very much less than "top end" in several nearby states such as Illinois, KY, Ohio, Indiana, and Missouri.

Even with significant private acreage, "Management" opportunities are not as great as most hunters might assume, and imo, a MINIMUM of 10,000 CONTIGOUS acres (and not configured in a long, narrow creek bottom, but more as a large rectangle or circle) is needed for highly effective deer management. Exceptions are mainly urban areas, and/or tracts highly protected from hunting or hunted very little. Great example would be having a 100-acre farm bordering the Oak Ridge WMA, even if your "farm" were inside the city limits of Oak Ridge.

Most often in TN, "managing" for "trophy" bucks just means hunters are giving a pass to most 2 1/2 & younger, but being counter-productive in actually managing for top-end 4 1/2 & older bucks. A top-end 2 1/2-yr-old buck actually has a higher chance of surviving to 4 1/2 on many public lands than he does on many intensely managed private lands. Somewhat a shame, but essentially no practical way of changing this reality. On the other hand, most TN hunters do consider an average 3 1/2-yr-old buck a "trophy" buck. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm fine with whatever anyone personally considers a "trophy".

My buck management is as much a personal way of hunting as it is any type of deer or "herd" management. I cannot control where a particular buck roams, which is often over 2 linear miles daily from bedding to feeding & rutting. This often takes a buck onto & off multiple private properties in a single day. I also cannot prevent the most healthy 1 1/2-yr-old bucks from typically "dispersing" over 3 linear miles from their birth location.

Put this in the context of a 1280-acre rectangular-shaped property that's say 2 miles long by 1 mile wide, and it's easy to see why most TN hunters cannot management much beyond their own personal trigger fingers and personal shooter buck standards.

Even with the 20,000-acre Ames Plantation, I suspect more of their protected bucks have been killed (legally) outside their property lines than within.

I remain a big advocate of high Quality Deer Management.
But it typically increases the amount of hunter antler high grading, meaning that top-end antlered young bucks have a better chance of surviving under simple either-sex regs (with a 1-buck limit x a short gun season) than they do where antler restrictions are used to help protect young bucks.

About all I can absolutely "manage" is what I personally decide to shoot (regardless the acreage).
For me, that needs to be a doe, or a mature buck, not a 3 1/2. It also needs to be one with some relatively large and/or unique antlers, that stands out as "different" from what is already on the wall. The good news is that nearly all fully mature bucks will have very "unique" antlers, even if they were mainframe typicals when 3 1/2.

Since I like to eat a good bit of venison annually, I might feel differently about these standards if I didn't have ample opportunities to "harvest" all the doe I need, and prefer as table fare over bucks.

Enjoy your hunting, and look for the positives in whatever situation you find yourself.
 
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Ski

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Well I can't disagree with your perspective. I appreciate you explaining everything. Reason I asked was that I saw you mentioned hunting a 7yr old, and having 5yr olds that you weren't even interested in. That sounded far removed from what the vast majority of hunters experience.

It's funny you mention having a 100acre property next to Oak Ridge. My Ohio place is 100acres surrounded 3 sides by a 10,000acres of state forest and park that rarely gets hunted hard, and almost never so deep that folks hunt near my place. Of the 7 properties I hunt and work habitat on, it's the only one where I can even remotely count on a buck surviving into old age. Even then it only happens with maybe one or two bucks per season. I can usually count on hunting a 5yr old on that property, and my success rate on getting one down is about 50%.

All the others are surrounded entirely by other private lands and they all get hunted. They range from 30 up to 150 acres. It's a revolving door of bucks on those properties and it's rare that I see a 3yr or 4yr old. Usually if he's capable of living to 3yrs, he has good chances of hitting 4yrs. I get as many 5yr olds on all those properties combined as I do on that Ohio place alone. Being the only person hunting any of the properties, I only have so many buck tags. I can shoot 2 in TN and 1 in Ohio. More than half the properties don't get a deer taken all season, yet the revolving door of young bucks continues. There's nothing I can do about it, and my own personal trigger decisions make virtually zero difference.

I would have to think the vast majority of private land hunters are in that same boat. Without adequate acreage in the right neighborhood, seeing a 4 or 5 year old buck is a crapshoot and nothing they can reasonably hope for. Letting a stud 3yr old walk is a huge gamble because it's quite likely a neighbor will not. I love your perspective and approach, but the pragmatic side of me is conflicted on how applicable it is for most smaller places.
 

Dumbluck

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It has been so strange at our farm in Hickman and just since Friday, we have finally seen a shift in deer movement, sign and finally some mature deer showing up for both us and our neighbors.

Deck I believe they are holding in pockets. If you can find them they are not moving far. The rut range buck I was looking for actually shifted earlier this year than usual but unlike previous seasons he stayed put and focused on a couple of groups of does. He was also so far down in weight I had a hard time identifying him to 100% until after he was on the ground. He was smaller body wise compared to last year. He had white on his front legs that I could always 100% identified him in person.

I have watched other bucks hold similar patterns where they are rutting in very small acreage compared to normal years.

I'd be willing to bet that if BSK actually had bucks with GPS collars the data would come back a shift in location followed by small acreage searching and some bucks essentially staying home and doing small localized searches.

In other words I don't think the deer are traveling great distances at all for most of them. Their body weights are too down and they don't have the energy.

These are my observations at least.

I'll send you a PM, we know each other I just have a different screen name. Call me sometime to discuss if you want.
 

TheLBLman

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Without adequate acreage in the right neighborhood, seeing a 4 or 5 year old buck is a crapshoot and nothing they can reasonably hope for. Letting a stud 3yr old walk is a huge gamble because it's quite likely a neighbor will not. I love your perspective and approach, but the pragmatic side of me is conflicted on how applicable it is for most smaller places.
I believe the situation in TN is actually much better now than you're thinking, even on small properties. My standing "rule of thumb" is any buck I pass has about a 50-50 chance of surviving another year, but a 100% chance of not, if I shoot him. And this is the case on many public lands, not just private lands.

Also, in most areas of large contiguous acreage, the situation may not be as good as you're thinking. There is a huge difference between an average buck that's surviving to maturity, and a mature buck with above average antler genetics.

On some areas of thousands of contiguous acres, where most 2 1/2 & younger bucks survive human hunters, for the past many years, I'm only seeing around one 4 1/2 or older buck being taken annually per approximately 400 acres.

Bucks you give a pass this year may have a much higher chance of not being shot by another hunter (this year) than you've been thinking, even on small properties. But even when you give a pass to most 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's, natural mortality may exceed human hunter harvests on 4 1/2's (and older). You can then count on any above average 4 1/2 being heavily targeted by multiple hunters over a wide area. He is very unlikely to survive one of those hunters killing him as a 4 1/2.

As to the 7 1/2 yr old I was targeting in 2021, I was also targeting him in 2020 & 2019. Came incredibly close to getting him multiple times, but didn't. Yet gave him multiple passes in 2018 & 2017. The main difference in his older behavior was in his becoming more nocturnal and more sensitive to any human disturbance. I also believe he more or less lost interest in pursuing estrous does during the rut when he became 6 1/2.

In these same areas, decades of hunting, I've never killed but one buck believed to be 7 1/2, but have killed several 5 1/2's, one or two 6 1/2's. One buck I was hunting was believed to have been 8 1/2 when he died of natural causes. IMO, half that make it to 5 1/2, then die of pneumonia or predation in the late winter of the fall they turned 5 1/2. Almost none of the other half will live another year, dying of natural causes (illness or predation) at 6 1/2. Some areas will see greater longevity, but this is ridge & hollow land near between the TN Divide & Western Highland Rim of Stewart & Houston Counties (Land Between the Lakes included).

Most bucks in this area will grow their highest scoring antlers at 5 1/2 or 6 1/2, but commonly have more mass and non-typical tines the older they get. It's just that most with above average antler genetics will get killed by human hunters when they're 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 (or 3 1/2). Never mind there are plenty of bucks surviving to 3 1/2 & older, just not the ones with the better antler genetics.

Anecdotal evidence of hunter antler high-grading can even be deducted by looking at the dates of TN's highest scoring bucks killed since the 1950's. Back when most hunters would simply kill "any" legal buck, there were more above average antlered young bucks surviving to 5 1/2. Interestingly, until the 1970's, TN also had a 1-buck limit and a very short gun season.

Until recently, TN's #1 Typical had been taken in 1959. In the 1960's, two B&C bucks were taken on the Catoosa WMA (zero since they began antler restrictions). Look at the dates for Shelby County (home of President's Island WMA). Never mind we have many times more "older" bucks in TN now than we had in the 1960s. It's just that those with the best antler genetics mostly get killed when they're 1 1/2 or 2 1/2.

But if you want to kill a 4 1/2-yr-old or older buck in TN, the opportunity for that has never been better. Just don't expect it to have antlers the size of the ones commonly taken in places like Ohio, places with a short gun season and a 1-buck limit. No, I do not want a 1-buck limit in TN, but would be fine if gun season didn't go past some time in December.
 
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Ski

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I believe the situation in TN is actually much better now than you're thinking, even on small properties. My standing "rule of thumb" is any buck I pass has about a 50-50 chance of surviving another year, but a 100% chance of not, if I shoot him. And this is the case on many public lands, not just private lands.

Also, in most areas of large contiguous acreage, the situation may not be as good as you're thinking. There is a huge difference between an average buck that's surviving to maturity, and a mature buck with above average antler genetics.

On some areas of thousands of contiguous acres, where most 2 1/2 & younger bucks survive human hunters, for the past many years, I'm only seeing around one 4 1/2 or older buck being taken annually per approximately 400 acres.

Bucks you give a pass this year may have a much higher chance of not being shot by another hunter (this year) than you've been thinking, even on small properties. But even when you give a pass to most 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's, natural mortality may exceed human hunter harvests on 4 1/2's (and older). You can then count on any above average 4 1/2 being heavily targeted by multiple hunters over a wide area. He is very unlikely to survive one of those hunters killing him as a 4 1/2.

As to the 7 1/2 yr old I was targeting in 2021, I was also targeting him in 2020 & 2019. Came incredibly close to getting him multiple times, but didn't. Yet gave him multiple passes in 2018 & 2017. The main difference in his older behavior was in his becoming more nocturnal and more sensitive to any human disturbance. I also believe he more or less lost interest in pursuing estrous does during the rut when he became 6 1/2.

In these same areas, decades of hunting, I've never killed but one buck believed to be 7 1/2, but have killed several 5 1/2's, one or two 6 1/2's. One buck I was hunting was believed to have been 8 1/2 when he died of natural causes. IMO, half that make it to 5 1/2, then die of pneumonia or predation in the late winter of the fall they turned 5 1/2. Almost none of the other half will live another year, dying of natural causes (illness or predation) at 6 1/2. Some areas will see greater longevity, but this is ridge & hollow land near between the TN Divide & Western Highland Rim of Stewart & Houston Counties (Land Between the Lakes included).

Most bucks in this area will grow their highest scoring antlers at 5 1/2 or 6 1/2, but commonly have more mass and non-typical tines the older they get. It's just that most with above average antler genetics will get killed by human hunters when they're 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 (or 3 1/2). Never mind there are plenty of bucks surviving to 3 1/2 & older, just not the ones with the better antler genetics.

Anecdotal evidence of hunter antler high-grading can even be deducted by looking at the dates of TN's highest scoring bucks killed since the 1950's. Back when most hunters would simply kill "any" legal buck, there were more above average antlered young bucks surviving to 5 1/2. Interestingly, until the 1970's, TN also had a 1-buck limit and a very short gun season.

Until recently, TN's #1 Typical had been taken in 1959. In the 1960's, two B&C bucks were taken on the Catoosa WMA (zero since they began antler restrictions). Look at the dates for Shelby County (home of President's Island WMA). Never mind we have many times more "older" bucks in TN now than we had in the 1960s. It's just that those with the best antler genetics mostly get killed when they're 1 1/2 or 2 1/2.

But if you want to kill a 4 1/2-yr-old or older buck in TN, the opportunity for that has never been better. Just don't expect it to have antlers the size of the ones commonly taken in places like Ohio, places with a short gun season and a 1-buck limit. No, I do not want a 1-buck limit in TN, but would be fine if gun season didn't go past some time in December.

I think your area of TN must be quite different than where I'm at in southern middle TN. Since moving here 7yrs ago I've seen and/or monitored on cam well in excess of a hundred individual bucks. Almost on one hand I can count the ones that were 4yrs or older. The percentage of bucks that reach maturity around here is low.

I do agree about gun season. Moving gun season to December and shortening it to a week or two, then moving ML to late season would do wonders for enhancing buck age structure, IMO. I'm not a fan of the two buck tags, though. I'd prefer just the one. But all that said, I'm not a biologist or wildlife manager so I'm sure my ideas wouldn't work well for keeping overall numbers in check.
 

Outdoor Enthusiast

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More than half the properties don't get a deer taken all season, yet the revolving door of young bucks continues. There's nothing I can do about it, and my own personal trigger decisions make virtually zero difference.
I would have to think the vast majority of private land hunters are in that same boat. Without adequate acreage in the right neighborhood, seeing a 4 or 5 year old buck is a crapshoot and nothing they can reasonably hope for. Letting a stud 3yr old walk is a huge gamble because it's quite likely a neighbor will not. I love your perspective and approach, but the pragmatic side of me is conflicted on how applicable it is for most smaller places.
This is pretty in line with my thoughts.

I hunt a small tract of land surrounded by other small tracts of land with no public ground anywhere nearby. The largest contiguous acreage is likely in the range of 300 acres or so with our tract being 100 acres.

Another point for me: I enjoy hunting and a big part is actually killing a buck every year. I have found that even a middle age buck with smaller antlers provides me satisfaction. Especially once I learned to do euro mounts. I can still proudly display the buck in my shop.

If I can kill an older age class deer that is icing on the cake.
 

TheLBLman

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The percentage of bucks that reach maturity around here is low.
That percentage is relatively low even in herds where the deer go totally unhunted by human hunters.

Natural mortality on 4 1/2-yr-old bucks in Cades Cove is in the ballpark of 50%, i.e. 50% of those un-hunted 4 1/2's do not live to 5 1/2.

I enjoy hunting and a big part is actually killing a buck every year. I have found that even a middle age buck with smaller antlers provides me satisfaction.
That was once me.
But as you hunt more years, you may experience a paradigm shift in your thoughts.
I simply enjoy hunting, and have found an old doe can be a bigger hunting challenge than any buck. In other words, I'm very satisfied just with opportunities, just to be hunting, and a doe, or a buck, has replaced my "need" for "it must be a buck" to be satisfying.

Especially once I learned to do euro mounts. I can still proudly display the buck in my shop.
At some point, you may more value quality over quantity.
Harvest pictures of old does have replaced many my antler mounts.

If I can kill an older age class deer that is icing on the cake.
Your paradigm shift is already in progress :)
Notice you said older "deer" instead of older "buck".

But as to an older buck, particularly a mature one with above average antlers, that is the best icing, but you sabotage your own opportunities to get that best icing when you not only settle for less, but actually kill the very bucks that would become the best icing on your hunting cakes.

Just saying, it become somewhat hypocritical for any hunter who routinely kills off the best stock in his area, yet complains there aren't many mature bucks where he hunts. And as long as you do this, how can you expect anyone else to give a pass to what you're routinely shooting?

This is just a friendly challenge to all deer hunters who say they would greatly value opportunities to take more mature bucks with larger antlers. To do so, you cannot kill them when they're 3 1/2 or younger. Nor can you expect other hunters to do something for which you yourself are unwilling. Trends have to begin somewhere, why not with YOU?

Speaking of how things are TRENDING, we do generally see most states managing deer herds in a more biologically sound manner, most hunters embracing it, mainly via shooting a doe no longer taboo, and more hunters happy to give younger bucks a pass. In most states, overall, deer hunting opportunities are likely the best they've ever been, especially for the public land hunters.

Seems only a few years ago, this conversation was mainly regarding 1 1/2-yr-old bucks. Today, it has shifted to where maybe most avid deer hunters are passing up most yearlings, and even most 2 1/2's. But are still killing off the above average antlered young bucks. Totally ok, if that's what you most want.

Enjoy your hunting, however you like the icing on your cakes.
 
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Chickenrig

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And always remember there's a big difference between growing mature bucks and growing large-antlered bucks. Growing mature bucks is easy. Just don't shoot them when they're young. Growing large-antlered bucks requires more skill in determining age and antler growth of middle-aged bucks and specifically protecting the top-end of the middle age-classes (2 1/2 and 3 1/2)
That is an accurate statement BSK . Mature equals old , trophy racks equals so much more .
There is a reason high fences operations pay 35k and up for quality bucks to be the breeders !!!
I say if you are really set on growing good racked bucks then take the spikes and substandard young bucks out of the equation and let the average 14-16" racked bucks live another year or two . Just my $.02
 

BSK

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I think your area of TN must be quite different than where I'm at in southern middle TN. Since moving here 7yrs ago I've seen and/or monitored on cam well in excess of a hundred individual bucks. Almost on one hand I can count the ones that were 4yrs or older. The percentage of bucks that reach maturity around here is low.
That's really amazing Ski. Everywhere that I manage land, from Lebanon to Waverly and all points in between, the percentage of bucks I pick up on camera censuses that are mature is never below 8%. In fact, 8% is the minimum. Most places it's closer to 12%. And this is on properties from 200 acres to 4,000 acres. The best of the bunch is a 3,500 acre property where the mature percentage climbed above 15% this year. That's exceptionally high in ridge-and-hollow hardwoods, where bucks rarely live past 6 1/2.
 

TheLBLman

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I say if you are really set on growing good racked bucks then take the spikes and substandard young bucks out of the equation and let the average 14-16" racked bucks live another year or two . Just my $.02
I say that may do more harm than good in a free-ranging herd most places in TN, where deer regularly use a multitude of properties under different ownership and different hunters on each property. What happens is you actually increase the harvest of the very bucks you're most wanting to protect.

In theory, the idea makes perfect sense.
Same with the "breeder" bucks.
Reality is often very different.
 

BSK

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I say if you are really set on growing good racked bucks then take the spikes and substandard young bucks out of the equation and let the average 14-16" racked bucks live another year or two . Just my $.02
As TheLBLman mentioned, be very careful about culling yearlings based on antler quality. Because they are so young, yearling buck antler development is based heavily on just one summer's food resources. Normally, we have a spike yearling incidence rate of only around 30% (30% of yearlings are spikes). This year, because of the drought, over 70% of our yearlings are spikes. If you started whacking spike yearlings, you would just about kill off the entire year's crop of young bucks.

Now if hunters want to add "mangement bucks" into the picture, I have no problem with that. For landowners that are managing for maximum antler quality I even recommend it. Bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s are far less likely to ever be a top-end mature bucks, hence adding them to the "hit list" gives hunters more bucks to target (as the list of top-end mature bucks is usually quite short).

The below buck is an example. The first picture is a big fork-horn as a 2 1/2 year-old. The second picture is him as a 3 1/2 year-old. He's never going to be a top-end mature buck. Placing him on the "hit list" to give hunters another buck to shoot for makes sense. He's just "taking up space" and will never be what hunters want no matter how old he gets.
 

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TheLBLman

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Bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s are far less likely to ever be a top-end mature bucks, hence adding them to the "hit list" gives hunters more bucks to target (as the list of top-end mature bucks is usually quite short).

The below buck is an example. The first picture is a big fork-horn as a 2 1/2 year-old. The second picture is him as a 3 1/2 year-old. He's never going to be a top-end mature buck. Placing him on the "hit list" to give hunters another buck to shoot for makes sense. He's just "taking up space" and will never be what hunters want no matter how old he gets.
Another "in theory" makes sense; in reality, may be counter-productive.

First, how much time does a particular below averaged antlered buck actually spend on "your" property? In most cases across TN, it will be a minority of that deer's annual time. This means he's spending more of his time on other people's property, and usually where deer are being hunted by lots of other people.

In reality, often, when we "cull" a young buck appearing to have below average antlers, we then instead just cause a better buck to be killed on the adjoining property. Now, two bucks have died instead of one. I'd just prefer someone on that adjoining property to maybe kill the "cull" buck instead of something better. But they don't have that opportunity, if you "cull" it.

Secondly, many young bucks get erroneously labeled as "culls", when their antler genetics are actually above average (but just need another year or two to "express" more of their potential).

In many cases across TN, the difference in food resources due to a few "cull" bucks being allowed to live, is negligible. Might make more sense to shoot a few does if your food resources are low?

Things are different if we were talking about deer management on a 50,000 acre ranch in Texas, where most bucks never leave the property, and food sources are scarce. Same can be said for any area where deer are enclosed by a fence and not "free" range, but that's not the situation of most TN deer hunter-managers.

Bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s are far less likely to ever be a top-end mature bucks, hence adding them to the "hit list" gives hunters more bucks to target.
But, by NOT "culling" them on your property, you de facto "give" this list to your neighbors,
likely saving the lives of some of your better bucks.
Give neighboring hunters more bucks to target, and more of your better bucks will survive?
 

JCDEERMAN

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NASHVILLE, TN
As TheLBLman mentioned, be very careful about culling yearlings based on antler quality. Because they are so young, yearling buck antler development is based heavily on just one summer's food resources. Normally, we have a spike yearling incidence rate of only around 30% (30% of yearlings are spikes). This year, because of the drought, over 70% of our yearlings are spikes. If you started whacking spike yearlings, you would just about kill off the entire year's crop of young bucks.

Now if hunters want to add "mangement bucks" into the picture, I have no problem with that. For landowners that are managing for maximum antler quality I even recommend it. Bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s are far less likely to ever be a top-end mature bucks, hence adding them to the "hit list" gives hunters more bucks to target (as the list of top-end mature bucks is usually quite short).

The below buck is an example. The first picture is a big fork-horn as a 2 1/2 year-old. The second picture is him as a 3 1/2 year-old. He's never going to be a top-end mature buck. Placing him on the "hit list" to give hunters another buck to shoot for makes sense. He's just "taking up space" and will never be what hunters want no matter how old he gets.
No kidding! I've seen more spikes this year than I ever remember. They are everywhere.

As far as a "management buck" goes, we have one we're trying to kill (pictures below). Had him in my crosshairs Saturday morning, but couldn't tell it was him through all the brush. A camera at the top of the ridge confirmed it was him. Pictured 4 minutes before I saw him.

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Ski

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Nov 18, 2019
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Coffee County
That's really amazing Ski. Everywhere that I manage land, from Lebanon to Waverly and all points in between, the percentage of bucks I pick up on camera censuses that are mature is never below 8%. In fact, 8% is the minimum. Most places it's closer to 12%. And this is on properties from 200 acres to 4,000 acres. The best of the bunch is a 3,500 acre property where the mature percentage climbed above 15% this year. That's exceptionally high in ridge-and-hollow hardwoods, where bucks rarely live past 6 1/2.

I've not ran numbers but before you posted I was thinking the percentage of mature bucks I see are in the low single digits, probably half or close to it of your 8%. Deer numbers are very high here and young bucks make up a large part of the local herd. Overall I'd have to guess the sex ratio is roughly 50/50. It's just a very, very small part of it is older bucks. And it's sure not because I'm killing them. I've killed one 5yr old, one 4yr old, and my wife has killed one 4yr old. That's in 7yrs of hunting these farms.
 

TheLBLman

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Jun 12, 2002
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Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
. . . . far as a "management buck" goes, we have one we're trying to kill (pictures below).
JCDEERMAN, what you're talking about here comes across to me as very different to what BSK implied in his above post.
You're simply talking about killing a fully mature buck,
and calling him a "management" buck.

I'd also kill that one, assuming I had the tag to utilize on him.


Very different than calling younger bucks "culls" when those doing the calling are often mistaken about those antler genetics. No doubt, the buck you have in your pics is way below average antler genetics, something that typically cannot be concluded until 4 1/2 or older.
 

TheLBLman

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Jun 12, 2002
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Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
I've not ran numbers but before you posted I was thinking the percentage of mature bucks I see are in the low single digits, probably half or close to it of your 8%. Deer numbers are very high here and young bucks make up a large part of the local herd. Overall I'd have to guess the sex ratio is roughly 50/50. It's just a very, very small part of it is older bucks. And it's sure not because I'm killing them. I've killed one 5yr old, one 4yr old, and my wife has killed one 4yr old. That's in 7yrs of hunting these farms.
Just a thought, but it may be that the areas you're monitoring do not typically pick up where most of the areas mature bucks spend most their time annually.

Bucks move around a lot more than most hunters seem to think,
often being more in areas where female deer mostly are not, much of each year.

If you done a lot to "improve" some localized habit, you may have inadvertently create a "doe sink", where mature bucks simply do not exist, except when a few may come around during the rut. This can happen even when there's a significant number of mature bucks in the surrounding area, but "your" old does have laid claim to the best habitat.
 

BSK

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Mar 11, 1999
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80,805
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Nashville, TN
Another "in theory" makes sense; in reality, may be counter-productive.

First, how much time does a particular below averaged antlered buck actually spend on "your" property? In most cases across TN, it will be a minority of that deer's annual time. This means he's spending more of his time on other people's property, and usually where deer are being hunted by lots of other people.

In reality, often, when we "cull" a young buck appearing to have below average antlers, we then instead just cause a better buck to be killed on the adjoining property. Now, two bucks have died instead of one. I'd just prefer someone on that adjoining property to maybe kill the "cull" buck instead of something better. But they don't have that opportunity, if you "cull" it.

Secondly, many young bucks get erroneously labeled as "culls", when their antler genetics are actually above average (but just need another year or two to "express" more of their potential).

In many cases across TN, the difference in food resources due to a few "cull" bucks being allowed to live, is negligible. Might make more sense to shoot a few does if your food resources are low?

Things are different if we were talking about deer management on a 50,000 acre ranch in Texas, where most bucks never leave the property, and food sources are scarce. Same can be said for any area where deer are enclosed by a fence and not "free" range, but that's not the situation of most TN deer hunter-managers.


But, by NOT "culling" them on your property, you de facto "give" this list to your neighbors,
likely saving the lives of some of your better bucks.
Give neighboring hunters more bucks to target, and more of your better bucks will survive?
Perhaps the neighbors might kill a buck like this. Perhaps not. But these type of bucks are EXACTLY the type that get passed year after year after year. Want more top-end mature bucks? Save the upper-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s, and feel free to take the bottom-end 3 1/2+ bucks. The percent of mature bucks that are top-end will improve!
 

BSK

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Mar 11, 1999
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80,805
Location
Nashville, TN
I've not ran numbers but before you posted I was thinking the percentage of mature bucks I see are in the low single digits, probably half or close to it of your 8%. Deer numbers are very high here and young bucks make up a large part of the local herd. Overall I'd have to guess the sex ratio is roughly 50/50. It's just a very, very small part of it is older bucks. And it's sure not because I'm killing them. I've killed one 5yr old, one 4yr old, and my wife has killed one 4yr old. That's in 7yrs of hunting these farms.
Hey, we've been running 8-10% mature bucks for 20 years and we sure haven't killed that many of them! Either we suck as hunters (a real possibility), or they are darn hard critters to kill!
 

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