Bounty on his head

[UPSman]

If he wanders down the street to Cathole, he's gonna get slicked by me if I see him

 

[Luke Blizz]

We have deer like that on our lease and we also have 3 1/2 year old 6 pointers on it. We are on a 100 in or better or its a 100 dollar fine. We've talk to the guy that's over it and told him we need to take those deer out because a 3 1/2 year old 6 point is never going to be anything better and don't need them to breed the does. We've been told we can shoot them but it will be a 100 dollar fine. Bad genetics will ruin the heard. Oh these 6 pointers are 4 on one side like a typical 8 but only a fork on the other.

 

[rifle02]

A few years ago there was a buck like that on a farm I hunted. I really wanted to get him. I saw him several times during the season cruising the woods looking for does. He was easy to recognize because he had an unusually dark colored coat. He was always followed by a very small Spike who was dwarfed by his size. They reminded me of the old Kibbles and Bits commercial with a big dog and a little dog. I never got a shot at him. The following year a friend killed a buck un opening day that could have been him. If so his rack had improved. He grew brow tines! The combination of brow tines and long curved swords made him look like a weird African antelope.

 

[DoubleRidge]

We have deer like that on our lease and we also have 3 1/2 year old 6 pointers on it. We are on a 100 in or better or its a 100 dollar fine. We've talk to the guy that's over it and told him we need to take those deer out because a 3 1/2 year old 6 point is never going to be anything better and don't need them to breed the does. We've been told we can shoot them but it will be a 100 dollar fine. Bad genetics will ruin the heard. Oh these 6 pointers are 4 on one side like a typical 8 but only a fork on the other.

Genetically speaking I would not pay the $100 fine for killing the 3½ year old 6pt because knowing what we know now, from years of testing, killing one buck from your resident population will have practically zero effect on the herds genetic make-up...we now know that the mama doe contributes as much to the genetic make up as the buck does and in addition multiple bucks can breed the same doe.

BUT.....if I was a lease member and I thought the 3½ year old 6pt was a bully and was trying to dominate younger bucks and if I was worried about him pushing some younger up and comers off of the property....I'd pool the 100 bucks between a few members and pay the fine and get the bully out of there....then everyone pitch in and have sausage made from him.

 

[redblood]

Genetically speaking I would not pay the $100 fine for killing the 3½ year old 6pt because knowing what we know now, from years of testing, killing one buck from your resident population will have practically zero effect on the herds genetic make-up...we now know that the mama doe contributes as much to the genetic make up as the buck does and in addition multiple bucks can breed the same doe.

BUT.....if I was a lease member and I thought the 3½ year old 6pt was a bully and was trying to dominate younger bucks and if I was worried about him pushing some younger up and comers off of the property....I'd pool the 100 bucks between a few members and pay the fine and get the bully out of there....then everyone pitch in and have sausage made from him.

Agree. I think alot of folks use the "bad genetics" excuse to pull the trigger. I certainly wouldnt pay 100.00 to kill a deer i wasn't interested in. The only way that i would shoot a deer that i knew was 3.5 was if the deer was badly hurt and suffering

 

[Tenntrapper]

He's going to look crazy coming through the woods. He will definitely catch your attention!

@BSK ...
If a doe is passing bad genetics to her male offspring, does her female offspring continue to pass those same bad genetics?

I ask because for the last few years we have had some really lopsided, weird racked bucks around here. Sounds like we may need to get rid of some does.

 

[Luke Blizz]

Genetically speaking I would not pay the $100 fine for killing the 3½ year old 6pt because knowing what we know now, from years of testing, killing one buck from your resident population will have practically zero effect on the herds genetic make-up...we now know that the mama doe contributes as much to the genetic make up as the buck does and in addition multiple bucks can breed the same doe.

BUT.....if I was a lease member and I thought the 3½ year old 6pt was a bully and was trying to dominate younger bucks and if I was worried about him pushing some younger up and comers off of the property....I'd pool the 100 bucks between a few members and pay the fine and get the bully out of there....then everyone pitch in and have sausage made from him.

So you're saying, killing these scrub deer, that have bad genetics, out of your heard so they don't breed your does, and the does keep giving birth to bad genetic male deer, will not help your heard over the years.

 

[Ski]

@BSK ...
If a doe is passing bad genetics to her male offspring, does her female offspring continue to pass those same bad genetics?

I ask because for the last few years we have had some really lopsided, weird racked bucks around here. Sounds like we may need to get rid of some does.

I'm not BSK, but I do have experience with what you describe. In my experience it's not a genetic issue at all. It's an @$$hole buck who's beating up all the spikes and forkies, causing damage, which in following years results in weird racks. I'll get some pics of the weird ones I have just this year alone. It's crazy.


edited: Here are several from just the last week, on one property. The 4th pic is an otherwise normal 1.5yr old but next year he'll have something goofy because his right side got broke off at the skull. The last pic is an old buck, so this has been going on for a couple years.

 

[Ski]

These bucks are from last year same property. 2020 and before, the bucks mostly all looked pretty normal. In the last couple years there have been many with deformed, stunted racks.

 

[DoubleRidge]

So you're saying, killing these scrub deer, that have bad genetics, out of your heard so they don't breed your does, and the does keep giving birth to bad genetic male deer, will not help your heard over the years.

Yes...but it's not my opinion...it's what biologist have proven over years of genetic testing....just imagine that 50% of a fawns genetic make-up coming from it's mother...then imagine that mother doe being bred by multiple bucks....then how many does will this "scrub" buck actually breed?...combine all of these variables together and you can see that killing one or two bucks will have little to no impact on the overall herd's genetic make-up.

It's been said many times that there are three things that big mature bucks have in common: Age, Nutrition and Genetics.

Age we can influence by letting deer reach maturity.

Nutrition we can influence by various habitat improvements, food plots, timber stand management, etc.

Influencing genetics in a free range wild deer herd is practically impossible.

But again...if the buck is a bully and fighting other bucks or pushing other bucks around....kill him....I just wouldn't kill him with high hopes of improving genetics in your local herd.

 

[Ski]

Yes...but it's not my opinion...it's what biologist have proven over years of genetic testing....just imagine that 50% of a fawns genetic make-up coming from it's mother...then imagine that mother doe being bred by multiple bucks....then how many does will this "scrub" buck actually breed?...combine all of these variables together and you can see that killing one or two bucks will have little to no impact on the overall herd's genetic make-up.

It's been said many times that there are three things that big mature bucks have in common: Age, Nutrition and Genetics.

Age we can influence by letting deer reach maturity.

Nutrition we can influence by various habitat improvements, food plots, timber stand management, etc.

Influencing genetics in a free range wild deer herd is practically impossible.

But again...if the buck is a bully and fighting other bucks or pushing other bucks around....kill him....I just wouldn't kill him with high hopes of improving genetics in your local herd.

Excellent post!

 

[BSK]

@BSK ...
If a doe is passing bad genetics to her male offspring, does her female offspring continue to pass those same bad genetics?

I ask because for the last few years we have had some really lopsided, weird racked bucks around here. Sounds like we may need to get rid of some does.

I have seen no research on that topic. But using simplistic genetics, I would say 50/50 chance of daughters passing those genetics to male offspring and 25% chance of grand-daughters passing those genetics to male offspring.

 

[BSK]

I have observed "selective harvest of bucks by antler quality" produce results only one way, and that is not shooting the top-end middle-aged bucks. If you want larger-antlered mature bucks, the most effective way to do so is by not shoot the top-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s. I have not seen culling out smaller antlered older bucks produce anywhere near the results that protecting top-end middle-aged bucks does.

Now on big projects I work on (large properties with multiple hunters), I often designate very low-quality antlered middle-aged bucks as "management bucks" that can be harvested as a bonus buck. And the reason isn't genetic. It is simply to provide more harvest opportunities for hunters all competing for those few top-end mature bucks in the population. Most of these management bucks are going to be fork-horn 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year-olds or 6-point 3 1/2 year-olds. These bucks have very low odds of ever being much at maturity.

 

[RobbyW]

This was a few years ago. It was bow season and he was 70 yards away. I never saw him again. Would have loved to have got him. Sorry for the low quality picture he was across a field

 

[BSK]

That's a crazy one RobbyW!

Unfortunately, Satan is still around, and really hitting the food plot edge scrapes during daylight. Just not on the food plot any of are hunting at the time!

 

[@fulldraw]

We have deer like that on our lease and we also have 3 1/2 year old 6 pointers on it. We are on a 100 in or better or its a 100 dollar fine. We've talk to the guy that's over it and told him we need to take those deer out because a 3 1/2 year old 6 point is never going to be anything better and don't need them to breed the does. We've been told we can shoot them but it will be a 100 dollar fine. Bad genetics will ruin the heard. Oh these 6 pointers are 4 on one side like a typical 8 but only a fork on the other.

Shoot more does. That has the potential to change the genetic makeup of bucks on properties too.