Age vs. Rack

[Spurhunter]

This is the best analogy that i can think of spurhunter.

Your screen name is spurhunter, therefore, i would assume you enjoy walking up on a turkey that has over an inch spurs. I'm sure as an accomplished turkey hunter you know the only way for them to grow long spurs is for them to live long enough to grow those spurs.

I'm sure you've also witnessed some turkeys with a long paintbrush beard but 1/2-3/4" spurs. As a young turkey hunter, i wanted to kill big bearded turkeys. Now, I immediately flip them over to look at spurs. My desire is to outsmart older turkeys, even though gobbling 2.5 year old turkeys are more "fun." My question is, would you rather have killed a turkey with an impressive beard or impressive spurs.

I am extremely happy that a turkeys spur isnt on their head!

You are absolutely right and I considered this while making this post. It is true a big beard is prettier but I prefer big spurs. The difference is if I had a longbeard close enough that I could see his spurs and knew he was a 2 year old, I'd still kill him. Maybe someday I'll mature as a turkey hunter. :rotf:

 

[duckriver]

On our farm and lease we are shooting for 4.5 years old and older. Now if a 150s 3 year old popped out he'd probably get shot. That's bigger than any of us have killed. All 3 of us have killed 140" 4 year olds but it's only been one each and over a 20 year span. We've killed several 120s that were 3 year olds until we've tried to start letting them walk the last few years

 

[Roost 1]

Personally I hadn't ever heard people talk about targeting "mature" bucks before I joined this site. I took me a little while to catch on. Up here in KY it's been about the rack for years with us "residents". The out of staters feel accomplished by killing what they consider "mature" bucks yet they complain about not killing trophy "racks". It's good thing they got plenty of money to blow on leases, they should be learning deer management.

 

[Jmed]

I could only hope I live long enough and kill enough giants to let a 150 walk. That being said I don't give my self and B&C score goal, but I simply want to kill the oldest deer I can get my hands on. Old, big headed bucks are hard to kill and they fill the freezer quicker.

 

[Roost 1]

. . . . unless you have a private property where you can strictly control things, only shooting 5.5 year old 150 inch bucks is a pipe dream that may only come true every other blue moon.

It can be a pipedream even when you do have a private property where you can strictly control things.
Location is everything, including which state, and/or which part of your state that property is located.

Then of course, the actual size of that property is a huge component, and most private properties in TN don't even approach having enough acreage to "manage" for 150-class buck of ANY age.

Even Ames, despite roughly 20,000 acres under some very intense buck management,
how many bucks over 150 are killed annually?
Do you even have trail cam pics of a half-dozen that would appear to break 150??

The odds of taking a 150-class buck (any age) can actually be higher on some "public" property than it is on most "private" property, and much of this opportunity has as much to do with geographical location as it has to do with any private management. Give me most any 50 acres in Southern Illinois, and I suspect the odds of killing a 150-class buck are greater than most intensely managed much larger properties in TN. This especially becomes the case when 150-class 3 1/2's are regularly produced in Illinois (goes back to the soil), whereas in TN, a buck with the same antler genetics at birth might need to survive to 5 1/2 to reach a 150-class rack.

I was waiting on "the soil" issue to arise. :rotf: Of course the limited number of firearm hunting days and the limited number of OOS permits don't make a difference. The local boys don't kill there young up and comers. :tu:

 

[Roost 1]

......I almost forgot. All that big open country and NO centerfires allowed.

 

[TheLBLman]

I was waiting on "the soil" issue to arise. :rotf: Of course the limited number of firearm hunting days and the limited number of OOS permits don't make a difference. The local boys don't kill there young up and comers. :tu:

Now, Roost, you know I'd be the first to agree with you that the "soil" issue differences have been widely over-stated.
But in the context of a 3 1/2-yr-old buck breaking 150,
it can make the difference.

But, agreeing with you,
those other differences you mentioned likely make more difference than the soil (assuming that soil is at least decent),
if we're just talking about producing 150-class bucks (regardless of age).
When everything is a fairly level playing field,
it's going to be AGE that produces the most 150-plus bucks.

Because of those other differences, in your case of KY vs. TN,
short 1-buck gun season vs. long 2-buck gun season (which had been 3 bucks),
there is no way TN can approach the number 150-class bucks as can KY.
Even if our soil was as good as KY's.

I'm just glad we no longer have an 11-buck limit,
because when we did, there were tons of KY hunters coming to TN for the live target practice
which helped them better shoot those big KY bucks :tu:

Sure is nice to hunt on either side of the TN-KY state line,
and take advantage of the best of these two worlds

 

[Roost 1]

I just wish I had a place to deer hunt in TN. If you ever have an opening on a lease please let me know.
I like to target practice on doe..

 

[Tennessee Lead]

I'd rather kill an older buck with a huge body and an average rack than a 2.5 year old with a huge rack.
I'm not into the inches fad. Older bucks should have bigger racks win win. I'm more excited about weight and body size than inches of antler.


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[TheLBLman]

I just wish I had a place to deer hunt in TN. If you ever have an opening on a lease please let me know.
I like to target practice on doe..

Ah, but you would kill all my turkeys! :tu:

 

[Mike Belt]

Most don't want to hear anything about the differences in soil and almost refuse to believe it. I'd be willing to bet all the money I have in my savings account that if all deer seasons were closed throughout the US for 1 year and there was any way to tally a buck head count including antler size Tn still couldn't compare to our more northern states age class against age class. If that's not soil then I don't know what is.

 

[Roost 1]

Most don't want to hear anything about the differences in soil and almost refuse to believe it. I'd be willing to bet all the money I have in my savings account that if all deer seasons were closed throughout the US for 1 year and there was any way to tally a buck head count including antler size Tn still couldn't compare to our more northern states age class against age class. If that's not soil then I don't know what is.

Not saying your right or wrong BUT it would take more than 1yr to make up for all the years TN has had very liberal buck limits. Keep in mind TN just produced a world record. So, it is possible TN to grow big deer. It's way more possible than some people want to admit.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . it is possible TN to grow big deer. It's way more possible than some people want to admit.

Totally agree.
But age class to age class, areas with better soil find it easier, generally speaking
This is much of why West TN deer are better antlered (on average) at any particular age class compared
than East TN deer.
And, same age class comparisons, KY deer will be slightly larger antlered than TN deer.
But ONLY slightly, if we didn't have worse antler high-grading in TN :tu:

To a much greater extent here in TN than in KY,
we kill off our best stock at younger ages.
Even that world record non-typical anomaly was thought to be no older than 4 1/2.

 

[fairchaser]

Most don't want to hear anything about the differences in soil and almost refuse to believe it. I'd be willing to bet all the money I have in my savings account that if all deer seasons were closed throughout the US for 1 year and there was any way to tally a buck head count including antler size Tn still couldn't compare to our more northern states age class against age class. If that's not soil then I don't know what is.

There's more to growing big bucks and big antlered bucks than soil, nutrition and age. Those midwest deer and northern species are different subspecies of whitetail. Plus you have the Bergman's rule where the colder the climate, the larger the body mass. With larger bodies you generally get larger antlers. You just can't compare our deer to those other subspecies.

 

[csi-tech]

This year I shot a 120 class 10 point that for all intents and purposes appears to be a 2 1/2 year old buck. I am a little bummed but only because my farm has almost zero pressure from adjoining properties and he likely would have lived had I not ended his walk through the woods that day. We aim for 3 1/2 year old 120" or better deer. He met 50% of the prerequisites. It ain't my fault he was sporting a 120" rack with 4" G4's. I think 85% of Tennessee hunters would have popped him. His picture is in my "Tagged out this morning" thread. It's just growing pains. As our bucks grow we have to adjust as well. I did walk some very nice 2 and 3 year old deer this year.

 

[TheLBLman]

Those midwest deer and northern species are different subspecies of whitetail.
Plus you have the Bergman's rule where the colder the climate, the larger the body mass.
\With larger bodies you generally get larger antlers.
You just can't compare our deer to those other subspecies.

What you said about Bergmann's Rule (as it might pertain to antlers) applies more to entirely different species,
such as comparing Canadian moose to Northern whitetails.

Bergman's Rule doesn't seem to apply so much to the different sub-species of whitetails' antlers,
although some of the smaller bodied subs do also have smaller antlers. B's Rule pertains mostly to body size.

I know there's been a ton of B&C bucks killed in northern states and Canada,
but there's also been a ton killed in Kentucky and Texas, where body sizes are comparatively small and smaller.

Of course, then there's the case of the diminutive Keys and Coues, both of which have relatively small antlers.
But how much credit for those small antlers should be given simply to poor other factors for growing antlers?
What do they mainly have to eat? Sand?

Not saying Bergmann's Rule doesn't apply, just saying not to the extent many might think with the sub-species of whitetails' ANTLERS. It does seem to apply with the sub-species overall body sizes, as southern whitetails are generally much smaller bodied than northern whitetails.

 

[AT Hiker]

Some of the biggest elk in the USA grow in the desert South West. Are they whitetail? Of course not, but they grow bigger than any other elk in much better habitat. Genetics and age and are a marvelous thing, along with limited hunting pressure.



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[Mike Belt]

fairchaser... I'll back up a little to only encompass local areas. Compare our Ames' bucks or any local agricultural areas to areas surrounding the delta. Generally those delta bucks are heavier and grow bigger antlers per the same species. If you don't attribute that to the soil then what?

 

[fairchaser]

fairchaser... I'll back up a little to only encompass local areas. Compare our Ames' bucks or any local agricultural areas to areas surrounding the delta. Generally those delta bucks are heavier and grow bigger antlers per the same species. If you don't attribute that to the soil then what?

Mike, it's definitely the soil when you compare Ames deer to delta deer. No argument there. Even when you compare one Ames unit to another, there is a body size and often antlers difference attributable to agriculture. The same nutrition may be in both places but it's harder to earn a living in units 1 and 2.