3 bird limit?

[Boll Weevil]

Anyone know how many toms the 3 bird limit is projected to "save."

 

[Remington700]

I doubt very many. I remember seeing something that showed the majority of hunters kill 2 or less.

 

[Bgoodman30]

It will save a few.. There were 40,027 turkeys killed in 2020. 16 % of hunters took 3 and 6 % took 4. Roughly 2401 birds.. Not enough to make a real difference and I am sure it won't keep hunters from complaining about it either.. We will be lucky if it ever goes back to 4.

 

[MickThompson]

Also remember we are under tag before you drag as well so I'd expect the reported harvest to creep up a little even with a lower bag limit.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Exactly 100% where I was going with that question gentlemen. A bit like the saying, you can't save yourself to profitability. How is sparing 2400 toms out of 40k total gonna turn around the population slide some areas have seen?

 

[catman529]

It will save birds in areas where hunters regularly tag out. Across the board it won't be a big number, but it will save birds in highly populated turkey country... so basically it will help prevent a decline in good areas, but it won't help bring them back in poor areas. I think the late start date in certain counties will help, but it will also push hunting pressure to nearby areas that have good numbers of birds so they will still take a beating. Luckily a lot of the public land near me is not massive tracts of land, so there will always be a few that learn to stay across the property line. Private property is the same way as most tracts are not very big. Just depends on the local hunters and how good they are at killing turkeys. Overall I don't think it will make much of a difference

 

[Carlos]

It would probably be more effective to just require each turkey hunter to go out and kill 1 raccoon and 1 possum.

Since we're asking tough questions...

How many varmints would that total up to? How many eggs & poults would be saved?

 

[Carlos]

Also, how many turkeys would be saved if farmers were given an incentive to postpone cutting the hay fields until June 1st?

Remember, these last couple of ideas (being way outside the box) would save Gobblers AND Hens. So the benefits would outweigh sparing the gobblers EXPOTENTIALLY.

 

[Boll Weevil]

I like your thinking Carlos. Really really novel ideas.

 

[megalomaniac]

Also, how many turkeys would be saved if farmers were given an incentive to postpone cutting the hay fields until June 1st?

Remember, these last couple of ideas (being way outside the box) would save Gobblers AND Hens. So the benefits would outweigh sparing the gobblers EXPOTENTIALLY.

You need to understand turkey reproductive behavior..
The EARLIER you cut hay the better.

When you cut hay early in middle TN, the birds have just started setting and will abandon their eggs when the MoCo starts running. Sure you lose the nest, but the hen lives and has a chance to renest.

Get into June, and hens are in their 3rd week of incubation. Once they have been setting for more than 21 days, they are NOT leaving their nest. Not to eat, not to drink, and not to flee the MoCo. So the hen gets chopped up along with the eggs. Much greater loss.

Trust me, as someone who loves turkeys more than anyone else, you just can't ask farmers to give up their livelihood.

As far as the 3 bird limit, it's just pissing in the wind. As ive said before here on multiple occasions, a limit is irrelevant if killed after the hens are bred (IF you protect jakes). But keep shooting birds before the majority of hens have been bred, and don't be surprised why populations decline.

 

[MickThompson]

Also, how many turkeys would be saved if farmers were given an incentive to postpone cutting the hay fields until June 1st?

Remember, these last couple of ideas (being way outside the box) would save Gobblers AND Hens. So the benefits would outweigh sparing the gobblers EXPOTENTIALLY.

Someone would have to go verify each and every field wasn't cut early if it was enough of an incentive to delay harvest. What would be the funding mechanism?That delay comes at a cost in hay quality. Im not opposed to it at all, just would love to see it work. Lots of hay gets cut just to mow a field and gets left to rot in fencerows. And it's the most expensive grass a cow can eat.

Hay cutting is no small reason for the decline in quail too.

 

[Carlos]

You need to understand turkey reproductive behavior..
The EARLIER you cut hay the better.

When you cut hay early in middle TN, the birds have just started setting and will abandon their eggs when the MoCo starts running. Sure you lose the nest, but the hen lives and has a chance to renest.

Get into June, and hens are in their 3rd week of incubation. Once they have been setting for more than 21 days, they are NOT leaving their nest. Not to eat, not to drink, and not to flee the MoCo. So the hen gets chopped up along with the eggs. Much greater loss.

Trust me, as someone who loves turkeys more than anyone else, you just can't ask farmers to give up their livelihood.

As far as the 3 bird limit, it's just pissing in the wind. As ive said before here on multiple occasions, a limit is irrelevant if killed after the hens are bred (IF you protect jakes). But keep shooting birds before the majority of hens have been bred, and don't be surprised why populations decline.

Great points, definitely something we need to talk about, and I'd expect at least a few of the farmers to play along.

 

[MickThompson]

Great points, definitely something we need to talk about, and I'd expect at least a few of the farmers to play along.

If we could convince producers to use more annual hay crops they'd have more flexibility in cutting dates. For example, millet, milo, or sudan could be planted in April mixed with soybeans then cut well after peak nesting season.

 

[JhnDeereMan]

Grassland Reserve program is out there to encourage farmers to cut after July 1. Farmers typically only sign the pasture ground up in it because they can't afford the quality loss on the hay. It paid $11-15 per acre at one time. Not sure what it pays now.
Carlos I'm with you that nest predators have to be eliminated. Next step is gobblers need a chance to breed. That takes a delay in the season start. They have to have habitat to eat and survive. Overall a turkey has way more going against it than for it.
I have been hunting them in TN since 1996 and I have come to the conclusion that I'll control what I can on my farms and hope for the best. I trap. I don't start hunting until April 15th and leave some good grown up native habitat. Beyond that it's up to the Father upstairs.

 

[Carlos]

If we could convince producers to use more annual hay crops they'd have more flexibility in cutting dates. For example, millet, milo, or sudan could be planted in April mixed with soybeans then cut well after peak nesting season.

That's another great idea, I wonder why the Agency doesn't consider other options, besides simply lowering the bag limit?
Is it because that's what a good number of hunters requested?

 

[Carlos]

Grassland Reserve program is out there to encourage farmers to cut after July 1. Farmers typically only sign the pasture ground up in it because they can't afford the quality loss on the hay. It paid $11-15 per acre at one time. Not sure what it pays now.
Carlos I'm with you that nest predators have to be eliminated. Next step is gobblers need a chance to breed. That takes a delay in the season start. They have to have habitat to eat and survive. Overall a turkey has way more going against it than for it.
I have been hunting them in TN since 1996 and I have come to the conclusion that I'll control what I can on my farms and hope for the best. I trap. I don't start hunting until April 15th and leave some good grown up native habitat. Beyond that it's up to the Father upstairs.

Yes sir, last year I set a trap and caught/dispatched a skunk every night for 7 nights in a row.

I'm definitely not as knowledgeable as many of you guys about turkeys. (I just started TH in 2019.) I'd like to see several things changed in order to allow their numbers to come back to what they were a few years back.

 

[MickThompson]

That's another great idea, I wonder why the Agency doesn't consider other options, besides simply lowering the bag limit?
Is it because that's what a good number of hunters requested?

It would require greater input from producers- they'd have to replant the field each year. However, it can be timed to also provide a jam up dove field. TWRA doesn't have the authority to force producers to adopt conservation. But it's a great option for the farmer that wants to manage for wildlife as well as cattle.

 

[JhnDeereMan]

My opinion is it rolls back to money. Our season opens early with liberal limits. Therefore you see a bunch of out of state license plates driving up and down the roads which means the agency cashes in.
For years the turkey population in TN managed itself. Restoration was very successful and turkeys were thriving which led to liberal seasons and bag limits.
That in turn led to a budget figure of license sales every year due to turkey season. We are at a management decision point now on how to best take care of the turkey population and no one likes to hear the word budget cut so instead of making season start date delays that would help greatly, the limit gets lowered that has minimal effect on the budget or turkeys but makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[Carlos]

My opinion is it rolls back to money. Our season opens early with liberal limits. Therefore you see a bunch of out of state license plates driving up and down the roads which means the agency cashes in.
For years the turkey population in TN managed itself. Restoration was very successful and turkeys were thriving which led to liberal seasons and bag limits.
That in turn led to a budget figure of license sales every year due to turkey season. We are at a management decision point now on how to best take care of the turkey population and no one likes to hear the word budget cut so instead of making season start date delays that would help greatly, the limit gets lowered that has minimal effect on the budget or turkeys but makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy.

That's just lip service basically, about like wearing a mask.
Smh.

 

[MickThompson]

The problem is everyone wants a smoking gun and it doesn't exist. Turkey recruitment is affected by a variety of things, and those things change in magnitude from year to year. Predators, hunting pressure, season dates, weather, farming practices, bag limits, disease, habitat, land development, and who knows what else impacts turkey populations and some years more than others. TWRA doesn't have any say in a lot of these factors unfortunately.

I'd recommend, however, if you're living in the glory days right now, to be proactive with your management.