Rut question

[Ski]

My experience has been that the rut here in southern middle TN starts in October and runs through season. I don't know if I'd call it a trickle as much as more like see-saw. It's hot then not, then hot, then not.

Below is a pic of spotted fawns on the 20th of November. Whitetail gestation is 201 days. Fawns lose spots 90-120 days after birth. If these fawns lost their spots today it would put them being conceived at the very latest 10.5 months ago, so mid February. Clearly they are not losing their spots today, so it's safe to assume their momma was likely bred sometime in the month of March. I've got trail cam info showing bucks clearly scraping and acting rutty in March, and these fawns are a prime example of why. It's because rut is still going on into spring. While this is not representative of typical breeding timeframe, it's not at all abnormal. I see at least a few spotted fawns this late every year.

 

[BSK]

That is the issue. This isn't a single year, seems to be every year for the last 10 years. Rut seems to start in Early November. Big bucks show up starting between Nov. 5th and 10th. Does start disappearing and abandoning fawns around the 12th-14th. "Lockdown" seems to occur at the end of ML or right around gun opener, depending on the year (this year ~Nov.17th). A lot of times gun opener is dead. This year saw 0, which is abnormal, but does happen. Saw one fawn on Sunday. Then started seeing fawns and young bucks. Then the Tuesday before TG I see a buck chasing a doe on a different property. Wednesday Afternoon, I see a 4 pt full on chasing a doe on my place grunting and everything, then a random 2.5 yr old on TG morning. Then it dies again.

Seems like every year does go in to estrous around Nov. 10th-12th. Big buck daytime pics occur from around Nov. 5th through the 17th, but usually from the 12th-16th, but they are passing through. I try to take these days off, but work doesn't always allow for it.. However I have seen bucks (mostly young, but some big) and had pics of daytime chasing as late as Nov. 29th. It seems most of my does come in to estrous early and then I have does going in to estrous around Thanksgiving, which is why this thought crossed my mind. Later I have fawns go in in December, and have had instances of a fawn going in in January and that is when I get pics of bucks that I've never seen before and they are usually pretty big.

These are phenomenally good observations Bone Collector. Are you hunting near Murfreesboro? I ask because that region wasn't hit as hard by the drought as West TN. In western Middle TN (the ridge-and-hollow hardwoods of the Highland Rim), acorns are a major player in deer health and behavior. Because of the drought, almost the entire acorn crop was lost and deer are acting "strangely" because of that loss of their highest quality fall food source. I've gotten hundreds of reports from the region of what appears to be a delayed rut or trickle rut, and lack of older bucks on camera. This sounds an awful lot like what you're describing, but I wouldn't think the Murfreesboro area would be experiencing the same thing.

 

[BSK]

Nope - deer are just weird.

You said a mouthful there, and we still have so much we don't know about the driving forces of deer behavior.

 

[BSK]

Care to elaborate on how the drought is affecting things? I'm sure you've addressed it on here already but I missed it.

Lots of research projects have shown southern whitetails (which have a more "pliable" estrus timing than northern whitetails) estrus timing is heavily influenced by individual deer health. The healthier a doe is, the earlier she can enter estrus. Very nutritionally stressed does may enter estrus several weeks later than normal. The West TN and KY drought this summer and fall had the habitat in terrible shape. It also killed the acorn crop. With poor-quality food sources all summer, and no acorn crop in fall, deer went into the normal breeding season in poor shape. With the camera censuses I do, I found properties where the deer were in such poor shape that I had trouble aging bucks. Their musculature was so poor their body conformation wasn't what it should normally be for this time of year. I was aging bucks at 2 1/2 that are probably 3 1/2, and definitely seeing bucks now that I believe to be mature that in October I labelled as 3 1/2. I've also noticed much lower than normal antler production per age-class in the region.

From what I am seeing on trail-camera, it appears the rut was about 7-10 days late in western Middle TN. That's not a huge difference, but considering for 21 of the last 23 years, estrus timing was on almost exactly the same dates year after year. The one exception was 2007, when we had the late spring hard-freeze that killed the acorn crop, followed by severe heat and drought during the summer, and a record-breaking EHD outbreak. That fall, the deer were in such poor shape the rut was about 2 1/2 weeks late.

 

[BSK]

Far too many hunters make incorrect assumptions about the rut for 2 reasons... low sample size... just because you personally don't observe an estrus chase or tending does not mean the rut is not going on...for example, 'I hunted all weekend and didn't see a single doe in heat, and I saw 15 of them!'

Or 2... they don't understand the dynamics of the actual breeding cycle... that it starts out with just a sporadic doe or two here and there in estrus, which then triggers the intense seeking phase, leading to peak breeding/ lockdown, then followed by another (although less) intense seeking phase. This is spread out over 2 or 3 weeks... an example would be 'the rut is on! I saw 2 different bucks chase 2 different does like crazy' (but fail to recognize they were just yearling bucks chasing inreceptive does which has little bearing on actual breeding timing).

On my farms, actual seeking and peak breeding were right on time. Signs like orphaned fawns due to mothers being tended by bucks were right on time. Actual tending and breeding by mature bucks was right on time. Scrapes being abandoned/ used less frequently were right on time. But I am more (or less, depending on how you view it) fortunate than most in that I am hunting an intentionally unpressured deer herd prior to the rut with multiple hunters collecting observation data every single day for a 2 week period, in addition to 15 trail cameras collecting data as well.

That's really fascinating Mega. Using all of the same indicators you use, my local rut appears to be 7-10 days late. Normally, everything falls into line for a peak 10-day window of Nov. 11 through 20, with peak "abandoned" fawns and sudden lack of scrape working in the Nov. 13-16 range. This year, those fell around Nov. 23-26. However, I won't have a really clear picture until sometime in mid-December, when I can fully review all of November's and early December's data.

 

[BSK]

I've got trail cam info showing bucks clearly scraping and acting rutty in March, and these fawns are a prime example of why. It's because rut is still going on into spring. While this is not representative of typical breeding timeframe, it's not at all abnormal. I see at least a few spotted fawns this late every year.

There certainly can be breeding as late as march. I once saw a full-blown estrus chase on Easter.

But also be careful with observations of bucks acting "rutty" in late march and early April. Bucks' bodies produce a surge of testosterone in late spring which causes their old antlers to fall off and their new set to begin growing. This little surge of male hormones will cause bucks to suddenly start working scrapes again. Every year, right around turkey season opener, I get calls from clients worried about the fresh scrapes they are seeing (worried their rut is screwed up). It isn't late rutting, it's just the normal process of antlergenesis.

 

[megalomaniac]

That's really fascinating Mega. Using all of the same indicators you use, my local rut appears to be 7-10 days late. Normally, everything falls into line for a peak 10-day window of Nov. 11 through 20, with peak "abandoned" fawns and sudden lack of scrape working in the Nov. 13-16 range. This year, those fell around Nov. 23-26. However, I won't have a really clear picture until sometime in mid-December, when I can fully review all of November's and early December's data.

I was fully expecting our rut to be a week late this year due to less than optimal food quality from Sept till Nov due to lack of rain and no acorn crop. But I guess the regularly spaced out rains all summer on the ag fields gave the deer enough of a jump before the big drought hit to keep the does in good enough condition to ovulate on time.

The one HUGE difference this year from the past decade was the insane numbers of fawns that survived the summer. I ended up with a 50% fawn recruitment rate this year ( normally 10 to 20%). Something wiped out my coyotes (maybe distemper) and the fawns really benefitted. Never heard a single howl in the evenings (normal to hear 3 or 4 packs), only shot 4 while hunting (normally shoot 10 to 12). I was wondering if the drastic change in fawn recruitment may affect rut timing, but it didnt.

 

[BSK]

The one HUGE difference this year from the past decade was the insane numbers of fawns that survived the summer. I ended up with a 50% fawn recruitment rate this year ( normally 10 to 20%). Something wiped out my coyotes (maybe distemper) and the fawns really benefitted. Never heard a single howl in the evenings (normal to hear 3 or 4 packs), only shot 4 while hunting (normally shoot 10 to 12). I was wondering if the drastic change in fawn recruitment may affect rut timing, but it didnt.

We too saw a huge improvement in fawn survival, but not because of a lack of coyotes, but suddenly turning 1/5 of our property into perfect bedding cover. Lots of places for little fawns to hide. We had been running a fawn recruitment of 15-25%, but this year it's 65%.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I have yet to put my finger on what exactly we see happening this year. The only outlier is the severe drought and that causing a complete acorn failure. Almost non-existent rut activity and that has still yet to be seen on our property. Didn't find the first scrape until 11/16 and first rub on 11/10. Tons of does and fawns and yearling bucks. The older bucks just simply didn't show up. Either something going on with the acorn failure causing no range shift, or they are dead. Never seen anything like this before. After having a great crop of older bucks last year, I would have bet my paycheck this year would have been on fire. It is exactly the opposite of that. It actually has the components of a newly-purchased property that hasn't had any management on it whatsoever.

I'm not going to put much emphasis on this year and cast doom and gloom on next year. Just striking it up as a big question mark year. We should be due for a bumper crop of acorns next year.

It's definitely not over yet and hoping for just a very delayed timing. We'll see what happens

 

[BSK]

I have yet to put my finger on what exactly we see happening this year. The only outlier is the severe drought and that causing a complete acorn failure. Almost non-existent rut activity and that has still yet to be seen on our property. Didn't find the first scrape until 11/16 and first rub on 11/10. Tons of does and fawns and yearling bucks. The older bucks just simply didn't show up. Either something going on with the acorn failure causing no range shift, or they are dead. Never seen anything like this before. After having a great crop of older bucks last year, I would have bet my paycheck this year would have been on fire. It is exactly the opposite of that. It actually has the components of a newly-purchased property that hasn't had any management on it whatsoever.

You're describing to a T what I'm hearing from so many hunters in the region. I don't know why the sudden decline in older bucks, but it is very apparent. I suspect it is more a lack of activity by older bucks that is keeping their range-shifting to a minimum that is producing the low numbers on camera. I'm also seeing myself and hearing hunters say they've not seen yearling bucks so actively participating in the rut like they are this year. I've got tons of yearlings working scrapes and chasing does on camera, something they normally wouldn't be doing because of the large number of older bucks we usually have around. I've even got two yearling bucks flat-out fighting on video. Not seen that before. Lots of sparring but not truly fighting.

 

[ROVERBOY]

The property that I hunt I've had a trail cam out since Sept., and only got 4 bucks on it. Very strange. No older class bucks at all. 2 were 1.5's and the other 2 look 2.5. I've seen chasing one time. Not seen much of bucks cruising either. It's usually not like this.

 

[philsanchez76]

Well I sure aint killed a nice one this year but my friend just got herself a beautiful 200 pound 10 point with her Mazda last night, so they are still moving quite a bit.

 

[Ski]

I have yet to put my finger on what exactly we see happening this year.

I believe BSK has had it pegged from the start. It's been pushed back this year. I'm seeing activity levels right now that I usually see late October and first week of November, except with lockdowns. I'm seeing pre-rut action while at same time seeing lockdowns. Really, really weird. I'm just now seeing scrapes opening up all over the property, but not where they usually occur.

My Ohio property turns out was a good indicator for here. I was just beginning to see the pre-rut shift with some traditional scrapes opening up when I shot my buck on the 12th of November. Generally speaking the rut up there precedes the rut here by 10-14 days ish. It was late there and it's late here, with the time discrepancy remaining about the same.

 

[philsanchez76]

I believe BSK has had it pegged from the start. It's been pushed back this year. I'm seeing activity levels right now that I usually see late October and first week of November, except with lockdowns. I'm seeing pre-rut action while at same time seeing lockdowns. Really, really weird. I'm just now seeing scrapes opening up all over the property, but not where they usually occur.

My Ohio property turns out was a good indicator for here. I was just beginning to see the pre-rut shift with some traditional scrapes opening up when I shot my buck on the 12th of November. Generally speaking the rut up there precedes the rut here by 10-14 days ish. It was late there and it's late here, with the time discrepancy remaining about the same.

interesting you say that about the scrapes. I went out to my local public last night to see how much damage the thanksgiving gun crowd did last week and found scrapes everywhere that were not there just 3-4 days ago.

 

[Ski]

interesting you say that about the scrapes. I went out to my local public last night to see how much damage the thanksgiving gun crowd did last week and found scrapes everywhere that were not there just 3-4 days ago.

That's exactly what I've been seeing last few days. It's like there was a dam holding the rut back, and it piled up & piled up until the dam broke and let the flood of the entire rut happen all at once.

 

[MintJulep]

I have yet to put my finger on what exactly we see happening this year. The only outlier is the severe drought and that causing a complete acorn failure. Almost non-existent rut activity and that has still yet to be seen on our property. Didn't find the first scrape until 11/16 and first rub on 11/10. Tons of does and fawns and yearling bucks. The older bucks just simply didn't show up. Either something going on with the acorn failure causing no range shift, or they are dead. Never seen anything like this before. After having a great crop of older bucks last year, I would have bet my paycheck this year would have been on fire. It is exactly the opposite of that. It actually has the components of a newly-purchased property that hasn't had any management on it whatsoever.

I'm not going to put much emphasis on this year and cast doom and gloom on next year. Just striking it up as a big question mark year. We should be due for a bumper crop of acorns next year.

It's definitely not over yet and hoping for just a very delayed timing. We'll see what happens

Exactly what I've observed in Williamson County. Very little movement from older bucks, never seen anything like it. Very strange.

 

[DeerCamp]

Far too many hunters make incorrect assumptions about the rut for 2 reasons... low sample size... just because you personally don't observe an estrus chase or tending does not mean the rut is not going on...for example, 'I hunted all weekend and didn't see a single doe in heat, and I saw 15 of them!'

Or 2... they don't understand the dynamics of the actual breeding cycle... that it starts out with just a sporadic doe or two here and there in estrus, which then triggers the intense seeking phase, leading to peak breeding/ lockdown, then followed by another (although less) intense seeking phase. This is spread out over 2 or 3 weeks... an example would be 'the rut is on! I saw 2 different bucks chase 2 different does like crazy' (but fail to recognize they were just yearling bucks chasing inreceptive does which has little bearing on actual breeding timing).

On my farms, actual seeking and peak breeding were right on time. Signs like orphaned fawns due to mothers being tended by bucks were right on time. Actual tending and breeding by mature bucks was right on time. Scrapes being abandoned/ used less frequently were right on time. But I am more (or less, depending on how you view it) fortunate than most in that I am hunting an intentionally unpressured deer herd prior to the rut with multiple hunters collecting observation data every single day for a 2 week period, in addition to 15 trail cameras collecting data as well.

Spot on!
The one key for us is... that end of peak breeding seeking phase is 100% our best chance to kill a truly mature buck for one reason - NEW BUCKS!

For us, it happens Nov 30 - Dec 6 (ish).

We will see fewer deer in general, but bucks we have never seen before, and usually a few of those are big boys. The post-peak seeking phase seems to be more desperate.

My wife's big 6 pointer (130") lived all year long over 3 miles away. He was their target buck and they had him on camera in the summer and fall through the rut. Then Just showed up here one day chasing a doe.

 

[DeerCamp]

That's exactly what I've been seeing last few days. It's like there was a dam holding the rut back, and it piled up & piled up until the dam broke and let the flood of the entire rut happen all at once.

Could that peak breeding is over, and the bucks are returning to their scrape making phase.

 

[BSK]

Could that peak breeding is over, and the bucks are returning to their scrape making phase.

We JUST went through our peak breeding phase (many fawns running around by themselves looking lost) around Thanksgiving. That usually takes place about Nov. 13-16. Our post-peak seeking phase hasn't started yet.

 

[BSK]

Spot on!
The one key for us is... that end of peak breeding seeking phase is 100% our best chance to kill a truly mature buck for one reason - NEW BUCKS!

For us, it happens Nov 30 - Dec 6 (ish).

We will see fewer deer in general, but bucks we have never seen before, and usually a few of those are big boys. The post-peak seeking phase seems to be more desperate.

We usually do quite well during that post-peak seeking/scraping phase. I agree it is more "desperate."