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#971938 - 10/15/08 07:08 PM Great pictures on Bowsite
scn
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I'm sure one of you computer savy guys can provide the link, but wanted to let you check out some of the most informational pictures I've ever seen for bowhunters that are currently up on the Bowsite.com site. Go to their big game forum and click on the thread titled Shot Placement-What did I do wrong? (or something close to that).

Someone on there has provided a couple of pictures of an antelope that has been skinned down and the ribs removed where the internal organ can be seen as they actually lay in the body cavity. The leg and scapula (shoulder bone) are also visible. According to the person posting, deer and elk are very similar to this antelope in their body structure.

What jumped out to me is that for my 39 years of bow hunting I've probably been aiming too far back on any broadside animals. Due to the "V" in the scapula/leg bone connection, I need to be aiming forward about 3-4" from where I was taught to aim in the spot behind the defined shoulder. Aiming where I normally do, there is very little margin of error if I miss a little back before I'm in the liver/intestines area.

I apologize to the mods if I'm not supposed to bring up another hunting site-but definately think those pictures are worth looking at for most bowhunters.
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#971960 - 10/15/08 07:17 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: scn]
richmanbarbeque
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as a bow ed instructor that is something I try to stress. When I started bow hunting I wish someone would have explained it to me. I often have thought about starting a thread titled " I would rather shoot a little forward than a little back". great topic to bring up. Hopefully someone will posts the link.
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#972635 - 10/16/08 07:53 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: richmanbarbeque]
DntBrnDPig
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http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=356994&messages=80&forum=5

Thats the link. I am a little concerned about this though. I have shot 2 deer with a bow that I hit the shoulder bone. The arrow just penetrated far enough in to cover the broadhead and that was it.

I had to watch in horror as they ran off with just about all my arrow sticking out bouncing off trees. I've decided this year to aim a little further back... now you are messing with my head.
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#972705 - 10/16/08 08:25 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: DntBrnDPig]
Radar
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Good info, Steve ! I like to shoot for that pocket or aim for the heart .
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#973471 - 10/16/08 01:15 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: Radar]
bowriter
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Now, SCN-Go to the thread "Real or Fake".

Tell me what you think about that. Use your forensic training. \:\)
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#973993 - 10/16/08 05:13 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: bowriter]
scn
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Now, SCN-Go to the thread "Real or Fake".

Tell me what you think about that. Use your forensic training. \:\)


Looked fake to me.
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#974285 - 10/16/08 08:33 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: scn]
102
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This is exactly what I needed to emphasize how important it is for bowhunters to have a VERY thorough understanding of the deers anatomy. Too far back may mean guts...too far forward may mean BONE. I have personally videod hits on deer that actually ducked their humerus bone (leg bone) right in to the path of the oncoming arrow. Thus stopping penetration from a 52 plus pound KE set-up. I have, on more than one occasion, aimed TOO low and TOO far forward on broadside deer, when they dropped into the arrow.

I now make a more concerted effort to aim BEHIND the crease of the shoulder, avoiding that humerus at ALL costs.

I prefer a slightly quartering away shot.

102
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#976829 - 10/18/08 10:42 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: richmanbarbeque]
scn
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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
as a bow ed instructor that is something I try to stress. When I started bow hunting I wish someone would have explained it to me. I often have thought about starting a thread titled " I would rather shoot a little forward than a little back". great topic to bring up. Hopefully someone will posts the link.


I agree, Rich. I think if I miss I'd rather be forward and risk hitting the shoulder and ending up with a deer that likely will be OK than being back and possibly gut shooting one that will end up dead and possibly not recoverable.
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#977645 - 10/19/08 07:21 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: scn]
102
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scn,
Because I teach how to recover gut shot deer, I'd rather have my "buck of a lifetime" gut shot and dead, and recovered, than shoulder hit and never know for sure.

Gut shot deer are COMPLETELY recoverable, meat and all, as long as one KNOWS the shot was gut, and waits the appropriate time.

102
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#977750 - 10/19/08 07:59 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: 102]
Buckblaster
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 Originally Posted By: 102


Gut shot deer are COMPLETELY recoverable, meat and all, as long as one KNOWS the shot was gut, and waits the appropriate time.

102


yep.

With a bow id pick mid gut 5 times before a shoulder shot with no pass through.
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#977965 - 10/19/08 09:19 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: Buckblaster]
scn
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That's the great thing about bow hunting-you can pick your shots and have your opinions, and I can pick mine.

And, IMO, someone who says they would pick mid-gut has little respect for the animal and bowhunting. But, again, just my opinion.


Edited by scn (10/19/08 09:25 PM)
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#978022 - 10/19/08 09:41 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: richmanbarbeque]
JayMc
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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
I often have thought about starting a thread titled " I would rather shoot a little forward than a little back".


Now you tell me \:D

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#978231 - 10/20/08 03:45 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: JayMc]
102
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I would rather make a clean kill.

But, I am there to kill the deer as humanely as possible. That is what we're talking here fellas.

THere are always going to be problems with shots on deer. Gun or bow. My wish is to help EVERYONE to become more educated when dealing with marginal hits. It has taken me a LONG time and lots of experience to get where I am now. If I can help ONE guy or gal save a bunch of aggravation and time, it was all worth it.

Gut shot deer are DEAD deer. Shoulder hit deer mid-clavical or humerus are wounded deer. May or may not die. I would not wish the pain associated with either shots on ANY animal. I am just saying...STAY AWAY from the shoulder. Aim BEHIND the shoulder. BEWARE that the deer is capable of dropping into the arrow and blocking that arrow with its' leg bone.

102
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God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
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#978249 - 10/20/08 05:08 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: 102]
Radar
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On most shots , I'll aim for the exit that will take out both lungs at the angle the deer is standing from the height of my tree stand . The last doe I shot was slightly quartering on , but I still took out both lungs with the arrow exiting the liver . I had a great blood trail and she only went 60 yards .
The problem with aiming too far forward is the tendency for deer to duck at the sound of the shot ,and the arrow ends up square in the shoulder .
Like 102 , I have hit a few in the shoulder and never recovered them . A shoulder hit that misses the vitals is , in most cases , a non fatal hit . Gut shot deer are dead deer . Not a great shot , but a recoverable deer.
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#979533 - 10/20/08 04:30 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: 102]
Buckblaster
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 Originally Posted By: scn


And, IMO, someone who says they would pick mid-gut has little respect for the animal and bowhunting. But, again, just my opinion.


 Originally Posted By: 102


Gut shot deer are DEAD deer. Shoulder hit deer mid-clavical or humerus are wounded deer. May or may not die. I would not wish the pain associated with either shots on ANY animal. I am just saying...STAY AWAY from the shoulder. Aim BEHIND the shoulder. BEWARE that the deer is capable of dropping into the arrow and blocking that arrow with its' leg bone.

102


Thats your opinion and everyone is entitled to them no matter how outlandish they are.

My exact point 102.

It is bad ebough to hit deer in the shoulder and gut alone. but I would rather know the deer is dead than have one running around with a broadhead jammed in its shoulder.
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#979734 - 10/20/08 06:26 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: Buckblaster]
richmanbarbeque
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I guess many different opinions. My point is most new bowhunters play it safe and aim for what they think is the middle of the lungs. Upon release they usually look for the arrow In flight and end up hitting the deer a little back. If you aim straight up the leg 1/3 up you will kill it every time. I have taken deer straight thru the shoulders. Not my shot of choice but have done it and not on mature bucks.
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#980711 - 10/21/08 08:32 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: richmanbarbeque]
Radar
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My goal as a bowhunter is never to become an expert in gut shots . \:\)
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#980840 - 10/21/08 09:14 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: richmanbarbeque]
Radar
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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
I guess many different opinions. My point is most new bowhunters play it safe and aim for what they think is the middle of the lungs. Upon release they usually look for the arrow In flight and end up hitting the deer a little back. If you aim straight up the leg 1/3 up you will kill it every time. I have taken deer straight thru the shoulders. Not my shot of choice but have done it and not on mature bucks.


That would be a good subject for another thread . It was a difficult bloodtrail on a perfect shot . Patience and good observation of the deer after the shot paid off . We both guessed exactly where the deer fell by paying close attention .
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#982678 - 10/22/08 05:44 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: Radar]
102
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Good points.
Radar...I appreciate your experience and apparent agreement. I had no mentor in bowhunting for deer in the 1980's. I had a few GREAT mentors in the skills of bowhunting, but NONE in the actual kill and recovery. When I started, bowhunting was fairly new to us around here. Unfortunately, I did become somewhat of an "expert" on recovering gut shot deer, and also just about every other type of bad hit. I learned the hard way. I have MUCH video footage of recoveries, autopsies, blood trails, and even a couple finishing shots. NONE I am particularly proud of, I just kept it for educational purposes. But remember...I hunt with lots of bow and gun hunters. My experiences are not just my shots. I am talking numbers of hands on recoveries in the HUNDREDS. And not just by arrow either.

These animals NEVER cease to amaze me. Just yesterday, I waited for the "perfect" shot angle on a plump doe in Franklin County. She gave it to me at 21 yards. I imagined the path of the arrow before release and intended on taking out both lungs. She had a slight quarter away as I released. I gathered my gear, headed to the truck, (2 hours later), and took up the B/T. About 240 yards later, I recovered her. My hunting partner is a Doctor and was flabergasted the deer went that far.

Autopsy showed the arrow entered left side, slightly forward mid-rib, left lung. And exited just below elboe, right lung, low. It also clipped the liver.

THe b/t was poor at best for about 100 yards, then a gusher.

I have seen this before, he had not.

Deer are TOUGH, amazing animals.

Aim at the shoulder, and you are eventually going to hit the BONE.

RADAR is RIGHT-ON. Aim for BOTHE LUNGS. AVOID the shoulder.

102
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#982734 - 10/22/08 06:44 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: 102]
richmanbarbeque
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102, NOBODY is promoting shoulder shots.
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#984510 - 10/22/08 08:45 PM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: richmanbarbeque]
102
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rich,
I am "generically" refering to the area about 6 inches above a broadside deers elbow, (Bottom of humerus) forward toward the top of the scapula, as the "shoulder". I have dried humerus and scapula bones from average does that would and have easily stopped arrow penetration. There is a ridge on the scapula, that will easily stop an arrow from penetration to the vitals. I have taken MANY deer with well placed shots through this area, but only because the deer did not react as much as it could have upon arrow release.

The picture on Bowsite accurately displays the bones we are talking about. But it takes movement of the leg to interfere with the path of the arrow. THis is very difficult to show to people. I have managed to capture some rough footage but it still does not cover all situations.

I definitely aim for the lungs. But I am VERY aware of those arrow blocking bones.

102
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God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
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#984779 - 10/23/08 12:38 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: 102]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
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I had a successful old timer tell me when I first started out bowhunting to only take a shot when the leg was forward , therefore exposing the lungs better . He has killed more P&Y bucks than anyone I know personally .
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#984809 - 10/23/08 04:30 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: Radar]
102
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Again...RIGHT -ON RADAR!
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God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#984917 - 10/23/08 06:52 AM Re: Great pictures on Bowsite [Re: 102]
richmanbarbeque
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Radar, I agree.

My point in all of this is hunters are so paranoid of the shoulder area that they gut shoot more deer. The shoulder IS NOT where hunters think it is and you can successfully bring your shot forward more than most realize. Anatomy is something that everyone should study and the best way is to process your own deer. Every time I kill one I check out where and how the arrow killed that deer. By processing and checking anatomy out I have learned that what I thought was the shoulder area is not. I think this was the whole purpose of SCN's thread.

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