#866549 - 08/13/08 11:41 AM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: BSK]
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Dawn Patrol
4 Point
Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 279
Loc: Cookeville
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I question whether entire counties have problems with high hunter density and low buck age structure. I would like to see data proving that.
Now if that situation can be found, then it would be prudent to manage that county in a unique way to produce adequate buck age structure.
The only county wide data that I am aware of is the harvest data, and that shows that some counties kill 67% yearlings while some only take 30% (low 30's anyway). That's less than half. There has to be a big difference in age structure in those counties, and without data showing that this problem is caused by certain farms within the county, I dont see how we cannot manage the entire county using the harvest data. I also dont see how the reason for a county killing 2x as many yearlings as another county can be anything but high hunter density, which directly results in poor buck age structure because of how hard the older bucks are to kill, as well as the fact that there are fewer of them available to kill.
Also, dont we have records of how many licenses are sold in a given county? If we do, we could divide the square miles for the county by the number of licenses sold to see how many hunters per square mile are in a particular county. We could take this data and find the "average hunter per sq mile" figure for the state. Then we could tell exactly which counties have high hunter density and take into account how much land they have to hunt. We could even go a step further with TWRA's current deer population estimates and compare that with hunter density. This would tell us if bag limits are too high, too low, etc (I'm not sure if they have that data on a county basis or not).
This would make it fair for everyone. In a heavily hunted area with poor age structure and poor sex ratios, such as in these "pockets" we have been talking about, I dont think its fair to the average hunter to let the experienced hunters shoot 3 bucks. That's worse than asking the entire county to give up a buck, in my opinion. There are only a limited amount of bucks to go around in these type areas and when there are way more hunters than bucks to kill, that doesn't bode well for an average hunter. Personally, I think this is why the hunter success ratio is so low. The little guy is getting left out.
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I support either sex hunting in Unit A.
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#866749 - 08/13/08 01:55 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Dawn Patrol]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Dawn Patrol,
I agree that a 67% yearling harvest is not good. The question is, how to solve the problem. Would a 2 buck limit help? Would a 1 buck limit help? Or would we have to go all the way to ARs to see a difference? And if we did go to ARs, which AR? I've seen vastly different average antler development per age-class across very short geographic distances (big differences within a county due to habitat and soils [upland pine/hardwoods versus agricultural bottomlands]).
But I have no problem with experimenting.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#866981 - 08/13/08 04:11 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: BSK]
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captain hook
10 Point
Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville
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Dawn Patrol,
I agree that a 67% yearling harvest is not good. The question is, how to solve the problem. Would a 2 buck limit help? Would a 1 buck limit help? Or would we have to go all the way to ARs to see a difference? And if we did go to ARs, which AR? I've seen vastly different average antler development per age-class across very short geographic distances (big differences within a county due to habitat and soils [upland pine/hardwoods versus agricultural bottomlands]).
But I have no problem with experimenting.
In my eyes the problem is simple to solve open up antlerless gun opps and dump the retarded quota stuff. If people could shoot Does instead of having no choice but to bucks in the freezer then it would significantly reduce the number of 1.5 year olds killed each year.
Can the traditional deer mgt. and move in a more progressive direction. This isn't the 60's.
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#866985 - 08/13/08 04:14 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: captain hook]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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First I would like to see deer density numbers versus projected doe harvests numbers. Some areas really do have fairly low deer densities due to habitat quality.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#866993 - 08/13/08 04:21 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: BSK]
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captain hook
10 Point
Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville
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First I would like to see deer density numbers versus projected doe harvests numbers. Some areas really do have fairly low deer densities due to habitat quality.
I have asked one million times where these "vast" areas are other then the obvious ones we all know about which are small in comparison to the entirety of Unit B.
Let people shoot Does and the young buck harvests will drop, if they don't implement AR's.
I do not like the traditional deer management that is used in Unit B, never have and never will. It is management of the 60's and 70's. I do not like the quota crap for Doe tags, and I do not like the way our ML season is designed.
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#867006 - 08/13/08 04:31 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: captain hook]
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Dawn Patrol
4 Point
Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 279
Loc: Cookeville
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I agree with the anterless tags and the quotas. Even Unit A is subjected to that. That plays a major role in the yearling buck slaughter. You can kill 1 or 2 in muzzleloader season, but in the gun segment, when the majority of hunters are actually hunting, they cannot legally take a doe. I agree with captain on this one. I dont speak much for Unit B because I dont hunt those counties, but mainly from Unit A counties. The only problem we have with does is that there are too many of them. I'm not suggesting Unit A get the 3/day limit like Unit L, but there should be a few antlerless tags given to everyone with the standard firearms license. This at least gives them a choice. With current Unit A regs, if they want meat, they have to shoot little bucks. This is a major contributing factor to the high yearling buck harvest numbers that some counties are producing.
_________________________
I support either sex hunting in Unit A.
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#867024 - 08/13/08 04:58 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Dawn Patrol]
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captain hook
10 Point
Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville
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I do not like the 3 a day limit for us, but one or two a season would be fine.
I just do not understand why this can't be possible.
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#867033 - 08/13/08 05:03 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: captain hook]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I don't see why it can't be possible as long as the local deer herds can withstand the harvest pressure. But I really can't speak from personal experience with most of Unit B as I rarely work in those areas (other than parts of the Cumberland Plateau).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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