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#863883 - 08/11/08 06:42 PM Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it?
pubhunter17
Spike


Registered: 03/04/07
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I was watching Lee and Tiffany Sunday night on the
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#863893 - 08/11/08 06:48 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: pubhunter17]
pubhunter17
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Sorry on the Bushman show and watched Lee kill two deer at fifty yards plus.I thought that was pretty cool and sorta stupid.I don't feel like that is an ethical shot but he stated if your going to do it for a living you have to take the shot when you can.I going to pratice at 50 yrds but I don't think I'll shoot an animal at that distance.
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#863927 - 08/11/08 06:59 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: ]
f1maxis
4 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 408
Loc: East TN

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Everyone's comfortable effective range is different. Many archers, including myself, do not hesitate to shoot a deer at fifty yards if the conditions are right. It's definitely not for everyone.
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#863963 - 08/11/08 07:15 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: pubhunter17]
TN RDG RNR
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The problem with shooting 50 yards in the woods is when your eye focuses on the target @ 50 yards, 0 to 40 yards become a blur and you will not see obstuctions.

I have shot 50 yards but the arrow deflected off a branch at around 30 yards out.
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#863984 - 08/11/08 07:25 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: TN RDG RNR]
megalomaniac
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Registered: 10/28/05
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Loc: Mississippi

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Drilled my elk at 50 yards last year... but that's a completely different animal from a whitetail...

first of all, their vitals are the size of a beachball. Second, they won't duck the string like a whitetail.

My longest shot on a whitetail is 35 yards, and that's about my personal max. I wouldn't hesitate to pull the release on an elk at 55, though.

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#864192 - 08/11/08 09:52 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: megalomaniac]
HenryCohunter
4 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 388
Loc: Cottage Grove TN/Horn Lake MS

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I have a pin set for 50 but ive never used it.
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#864222 - 08/11/08 10:26 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: ]
buckhorn40
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#864236 - 08/11/08 10:58 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: buckhorn40]
Radar
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Archery is seeing how far away you can hit the target , bowhunting is seeing how close you can get to it . ;\)
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#864240 - 08/11/08 11:12 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Radar]
Southpaw
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 Originally Posted By: Radar
Archery is seeing how far away you can hit the target , bowhunting is seeing how close you can get to it . ;\)


Nice! \:\)
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#864272 - 08/12/08 04:40 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Radar]
f1maxis
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Loc: East TN

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 Originally Posted By: Radar
Archery is seeing how far away you can hit the target , bowhunting is seeing how close you can get to it . ;\)


Very true. I certainly don't setup for those longer shots but, not everyone lives in a fantasy world where every setup produces shots 15 yards or less. Sometimes, the deer don't cooperate and may present a longer shot. For those that have prepared for that shot, they get to go home with meat for the table. Everybody else.....they just get to go home. ;\)
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#864413 - 08/12/08 06:59 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: f1maxis]
Radar
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 Originally Posted By: f1maxis
 Originally Posted By: Radar
Archery is seeing how far away you can hit the target , bowhunting is seeing how close you can get to it . ;\)


Very true. I certainly don't setup for those longer shots but, not everyone lives in a fantasy world where every setup produces shots 15 yards or less. Sometimes, the deer don't cooperate and may present a longer shot. For those that have prepared for that shot, they get to go home with meat for the table. Everybody else.....they just get to go home. ;\)

Shooting long distance in practice refines your shooting form and bow setup . You can easily see the flaws in form and setup beyond 40 yards , that don't show up at 25 yards .
Taking the long shot in the woods or field depends on your shooting skills , knowing the correct yardage , obstacles in the way of the shot , and the body language of the deer .
If the deer is nervous before you shoot , it will jump the string . A deer can swap ends at the sound of the shot before the arrow arrives at long distances .
It's a matter of confidence in taking the shot . If it feels right and you know with certainty you can make the shot cleanly without wounding the deer , take it .
When it doubt , let down and let it walk .
Many of the bottlenecks I hunt have steep terrain features that funnel down movement within 25 yards . I have many spots that are slam dunk spots . I'd rather use good woodsmanship skills than take a risky shot . My effective range in the woods is 40 yards .
I put enough venison in the freezer to feed my family .
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#864700 - 08/12/08 09:45 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Southpaw]
POSSUM HUNTER
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i have shot a doe at 52 yards hit where i was aiming to butt thats back when i had better eyesight i would deffinatly do it again if i had practiced and felt comfortable with it
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#864770 - 08/12/08 10:23 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Southpaw]
RussellvilleRob
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Registered: 09/15/05
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Most of my hunting set-ups are man-made funnels. I have trails cut thru briar thickets that bring the deer within 20-yds. I practice at 30 but never shoot over 20.
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#864793 - 08/12/08 10:49 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: RussellvilleRob]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
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A couple of years ago I did several polls on different bow forums on the average "killing shot" distance for whitetails in a person's experience over the years . Not the longest or shortest shots , but the average distance for shot and recovered deer. For those who gave me a shot range on their kills , I split the distance . For instance if a hunter said his average killing shots were between 20-25 yards , I entered 22.5 yards as their average .
Hundreds of guys responded to the polls , and the calculated average shot distance was just under 18 yards for eastern Whitetails . My average killing shot is around 25 yards .
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#864799 - 08/12/08 10:56 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Radar]
f1maxis
4 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 408
Loc: East TN

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 Originally Posted By: Radar
 Originally Posted By: f1maxis
 Originally Posted By: Radar
Archery is seeing how far away you can hit the target , bowhunting is seeing how close you can get to it . ;\)


Very true. I certainly don't setup for those longer shots but, not everyone lives in a fantasy world where every setup produces shots 15 yards or less. Sometimes, the deer don't cooperate and may present a longer shot. For those that have prepared for that shot, they get to go home with meat for the table. Everybody else.....they just get to go home. ;\)

Shooting long distance in practice refines your shooting form and bow setup . You can easily see the flaws in form and setup beyond 40 yards , that don't show up at 25 yards .
Taking the long shot in the woods or field depends on your shooting skills , knowing the correct yardage , obstacles in the way of the shot , and the body language of the deer .
If the deer is nervous before you shoot , it will jump the string . A deer can swap ends at the sound of the shot before the arrow arrives at long distances .
It's a matter of confidence in taking the shot . If it feels right and you know with certainty you can make the shot cleanly without wounding the deer , take it .
When it doubt , let down and let it walk .
Many of the bottlenecks I hunt have steep terrain features that funnel down movement within 25 yards . I have many spots that are slam dunk spots . I'd rather use good woodsmanship skills than take a risky shot . My effective range in the woods is 40 yards .
I put enough venison in the freezer to feed my family .


Like I said, I certainly don't setup for long range shots, but I will take one should the opportunity present itself. That's why I practice 4-6 days a week, each and every week throughout the year. That's why I shoot local, state and national archery competitions almost every weekend. That's why I routinely shoot at distances of up to 100 yards. That's why I'm 100% confident in each shot that I take.

So, if you kill a deer at 40 yards (your self-stated effective range), did you use "good woodsmanship" or did you take a "risky shot"? It all depends on who you ask.

This debate could go on forever. The bottom line is that each person needs to know his own personal limitations and abilities. Just because YOU don't feel comfortable shooting past 40 yards doesn't mean that it's unethical to do so. Some hunters would claim that your "40 yard" effective range is too risky and limit themselves to 25 yards and under. Does that mean that YOU shouldn't take 40 yard shots, of course not.

Everybody needs to just use common sense, learn to read deer body language and practice every chance they get.

Like I stated earlier, it's definetely not for everyone.


Edited by f1maxis (08/12/08 10:58 AM)
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#864814 - 08/12/08 11:07 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Radar]
eddie c
Old School
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Registered: 08/09/01
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Let's put this in another perspective. Here in the eastern part of the U.S., bowhunters consider 40 yds as a long shot. Head out west and talk to those guys. To them if you cant hit your spot 50-60 yds consistantly, they will tell you to stay home on the couch.

I agree with Radar's 'getting close' statement but can also see some other area of the country's perspective.

while reading a topic on shot distances on another site, one other gentleman made a statement that makes sense to me.

"....ethics does not involve how far you shoot...it involves...knowing your limitations and staying inside of them."

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#864891 - 08/12/08 11:50 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: eddie c]
Radar
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Bowhunting is so much more than just shooting well at stationary 3-D targets . Live game is a different matter .
The effective range on live game should always be less than the ideal conditions presented in practice with known yardages at targets that don't move .
It doesn't take a 3-D tournament shooter to make a good bowhunter . Some of the best bowhunters in the nation are average archers that are good bowhunters . Just the same , a good tournament archer doesn't always make a good bowhunter .
I agree that everyone has a different effective range . It is that range that a person is 100% confident of making a killing shot .The best bowhunters shoot within the limitations of their effective range .
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#864919 - 08/12/08 12:06 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Radar]
buzzr46
12 Point


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even though I may be able to hit a target at 50+ yards, to shoot at a deer at that range I would have to wonder about how much kinetic energy is making it that far.

Edited by buzzr46 (08/12/08 12:07 PM)
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#864994 - 08/12/08 12:31 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Southpaw]
easy45
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I have actually never tryed it, not even messing around
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#865041 - 08/12/08 12:59 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: easy45]
RUGER Administrator
Bambi Killa
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No comment, just WAY too much fuel for a useless fire.

Well ok one comment, to answer your question with nothing added.
Yes, I have taken a few "fifty yard" shots. Honestly none were exactly fifty though. 4 that come to mind went from 52 to 55 yards.
All came in one season and were the only shots I had that year.
Went 4 for 4 and longest distance traveled after the shot was 27 yards.
All 4 recovered.
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#865317 - 08/12/08 03:38 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: RUGER]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
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I have a 35,45, and 55 yard pin. I practice at all ranges and can hit the vtals in all three distances. I have only taken on shot over 50 yards. It was 54 yards. The deer was in a field and I was on the edge of the field. He ate good.
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#865376 - 08/12/08 04:58 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
BowGuy84
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Registered: 09/16/07
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Loc: Nashville, TN and Louisville, ...

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Farthest kills were 41 and 43...Id take a 50 in a heartbeat. As many have said, it isnt for everyone but I shoot all year and have a 55 yd pin. I know how to hold it out to 60 and can keep a 3 arrow group inside a 4 in circle with almost no exception. I also have noticed deer dont "string jump" near as much further off.

All this being said, my average shot distance on all bow kills is...22 yards.

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#865388 - 08/12/08 05:04 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: BowGuy84]
JDBinTN
8 Point


Registered: 08/21/07
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Practice that far but limit hunting shots to 40yds.
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#865705 - 08/12/08 08:00 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: pubhunter17]
FallRutSpringStrut
4 Point


Registered: 10/13/05
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Loc: Tennessee

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This is a great debate and everyone has great opinions on long shots. I can see everyones agreements and disagreements. It just depends on the person. I have a friend that lives in California and this guy is a die hard bow hunter. He has taken numberous mulies, black tails and bears out on the west coast. An alot of his shots are over 50 yards because they use mostly spot and stalk. Well in the last 25 plus years of bow hunting he has never taken a whitetail. Last year he was in town on business and he had his first chance to bow hunt whitetails from a treestand. On the second day he was lucky enough to connect on a mature doe. After the hunt he admitted that our hunting around here is very difficult and the deer are very weary. So alot of it depends on the game you are hunting.
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#865951 - 08/12/08 11:47 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: buzzr46]
Rickym
6 Point


Registered: 07/13/04
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 Originally Posted By: buzzr46
even though I may be able to hit a target at 50+ yards, to shoot at a deer at that range I would have to wonder about how much kinetic energy is making it that far.


plenty enough to pass right thru with a good setup.

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#865986 - 08/13/08 04:51 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Rickym]
f1maxis
4 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 408
Loc: East TN

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 Originally Posted By: buzzr46
even though I may be able to hit a target at 50+ yards, to shoot at a deer at that range I would have to wonder about how much kinetic energy is making it that far.


A bow shooting 260 fps with a 400 grain arrow generates 60 ft-lbs of KE and 0.461 lbs-sec of momentum at the bow. At 50 yards, that same arrow still generates 54 ft. lbs of KE and 0.437 lbs-sec of momentum.

Like was stated above, plenty enough for a clean pass-through.
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#866012 - 08/13/08 05:44 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: f1maxis]
buzzr46
12 Point


Registered: 05/20/06
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Loc: Johnson city

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 Originally Posted By: f1maxis
 Originally Posted By: buzzr46
even though I may be able to hit a target at 50+ yards, to shoot at a deer at that range I would have to wonder about how much kinetic energy is making it that far.


A bow shooting 260 fps with a 400 grain arrow generates 60 ft-lbs of KE and 0.461 lbs-sec of momentum at the bow. At 50 yards, that same arrow still generates 54 ft. lbs of KE and 0.437 lbs-sec of momentum.

Like was stated above, plenty enough for a clean pass-through.


cool, what's the formula for figgerin' all that out. That's neat to know
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#866030 - 08/13/08 06:15 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: buzzr46]
f1maxis
4 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 408
Loc: East TN

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 Originally Posted By: buzzr46
 Originally Posted By: f1maxis
 Originally Posted By: buzzr46
even though I may be able to hit a target at 50+ yards, to shoot at a deer at that range I would have to wonder about how much kinetic energy is making it that far.


A bow shooting 260 fps with a 400 grain arrow generates 60 ft-lbs of KE and 0.461 lbs-sec of momentum at the bow. At 50 yards, that same arrow still generates 54 ft. lbs of KE and 0.437 lbs-sec of momentum.

Like was stated above, plenty enough for a clean pass-through.


cool, what's the formula for figgerin' all that out. That's neat to know



KE formula:

(Arrow Weight * Velocity * Velocity) / 450,240


Momentum formula:

(Arrow Weight / 7000) / 32) * Velocity
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#866052 - 08/13/08 06:30 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: f1maxis]
f1maxis
4 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 408
Loc: East TN

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One other note, according to Easton, here are the guidelines for the required KE you'll need to hunt different species:

< 25 ft. lbs. - Small Game (rabbit, groundhog, etc.)
25-41 ft. lbs. - Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)
42-65 ft. lbs. - Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)
> 65 ft. lbs. - Toughest Game (Cape Buffalo, Grizzly, etc.)


Edited by f1maxis (08/13/08 06:30 AM)
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#868891 - 08/14/08 03:30 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: FallRutSpringStrut]
W.Seay
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For todays higher end bows, 50 yards is nothing in the hands of an accomplished shooter who knows his equipment.I group the same at 60 yards as I do at 20 yards.
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#868910 - 08/14/08 03:53 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: W.Seay]
BowGuy84
10 Point


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 4904
Loc: Nashville, TN and Louisville, ...

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Here are the only 4 arrows I shot tonight. All were shot at 55 yds. Not saying I am Robin Hood, or Chance B. or anything...just what a hunting set up can do with a little practice.

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#873945 - 08/18/08 02:42 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: BowGuy84]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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If you hunt out west much, you almost have to learn to make 50-yard shots. The western hunters are use to it. In the wide open, brush in between doesn't even figure in.It really all comes down to quickly reading the conditions, wind, uphill, downhill etc and then practicing enough that a 50-yard shot is no more difficult than a 30-yard shot. One of keys is to practice on 3-D targets, not dots.

Do I espouse taking 50-yard shot? Absolutley not. I have taken a few, made a few. But I have hunted with some guys who thought nothing of it and never made a bad shot. Chuck Adams was one of them. Byron Ferguson another.

It's all relative and ethics only comes into play if you take one and have to hope and pray it hits. If you make those shots on live game all the time, dam betcha it is ethical. But for the average, eastern hunter, it sure isn't reccommended.
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#874137 - 08/18/08 04:47 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: bowriter]
stik
"Popcorn"
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a deer can move a long ways before an arrow covers 50 yds. i would never shoot at a live target over 30-35 yds.
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#876785 - 08/20/08 04:04 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Southpaw]
XForceman
Spike


Registered: 08/07/08
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Loc: Sullivan County

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Spoken like a true HUNTER Radar!!! Well Said.
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#877452 - 08/20/08 10:48 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: megalomaniac]
CZ284
8 Point


Registered: 10/30/06
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Loc: Rossville, Tn

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
Drilled my elk at 50 yards last year... but that's a completely different animal from a whitetail...

first of all, their vitals are the size of a beachball. Second, they won't duck the string like a whitetail.

My longest shot on a whitetail is 35 yards, and that's about my personal max. I wouldn't hesitate to pull the release on an elk at 55, though.


Very good point mega. I killed an elk at 50 yards as well, standing broadside in an open field. They are definitely not as spooky or quick as a whitetail.

Not only is there the increased possibility of hitting something small in the way, 50 yards in the woods is a LONG way. Wind drift, etc. taken into account in my book makes a shot that long at a wihtetail a questionable thing.

Personally, in over 25 years of bowhunting, I've never shot at a whitetail over 25 yards. Knock on wood, I've only wounded one and it was a very superficial cut on the brisket. I like to get in close- in my book that's the biggest challenge to bowhunting, gettin in close so you have a greater chance of a short, accurate shot. Long range shooting is best left for field archery. JMO.

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#879136 - 08/21/08 08:16 AM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Southpaw]
wskp1
4 Point


Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 104
Loc: Cookeville

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I shot a buck at 64 yards from our 40' tree hut. He dropped right where he was standing. Not a good practice but I had practice the shot from the stand. Never would shoot from a distance that I had not practiced from.
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#879528 - 08/21/08 12:03 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: easy45]
Blue5
Woodpile Boys
16 Point


Registered: 09/21/04
Posts: 16851
Loc: Chapel Hill, TN

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IMO todays bows are very capable of 50 yd kills! With practice!
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#879588 - 08/21/08 12:42 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: pubhunter17]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 11986
Loc: Benton Co.

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 Originally Posted By: pubhunter17
Sorry on the Bushman show and watched Lee kill two deer at fifty yards plus.I thought that was pretty cool and sorta stupid.I don't feel like that is an ethical shot but he stated if your going to do it for a living you have to take the shot when you can.I going to pratice at 50 yrds but I don't think I'll shoot an animal at that distance.

Thats the problem with many businesses today No ecthic's.I wonder how many guys that would not take that 50 yard plus shot saw it and say if he can do it so can I.???They never show the gut shot unrecovered deer. They only show the perfect shot and perfect recovery's. I used to watch all the hunting shows. Don't watch any of them anymore. I prefer the one man uneditted show when I hit the woods.Some days are perfect,some not so perfect. They're all good if I'm in the woods.
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#879607 - 08/21/08 12:51 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
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Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
 Originally Posted By: pubhunter17
Sorry on the Bushman show and watched Lee kill two deer at fifty yards plus.I thought that was pretty cool and sorta stupid.I don't feel like that is an ethical shot but he stated if your going to do it for a living you have to take the shot when you can.I going to pratice at 50 yrds but I don't think I'll shoot an animal at that distance.

Thats the problem with many businesses today No ecthic's.I wonder how many guys that would not take that 50 yard plus shot saw it and say if he can do it so can I.???They never show the gut shot unrecovered deer. They only show the perfect shot and perfect recovery's. I used to watch all the hunting shows. Don't watch any of them anymore. I prefer the one man uneditted show when I hit the woods.Some days are perfect,some not so perfect. They're all good if I'm in the woods.



Just like on a hunting forum , No one will talk about the shots they missed or wounded , just brag about the good shots they made . It's human nature I guess .
I have nothing against an accomplished archer and bowhunter taking a shot within their effective range , regardless of the range . The point I have been trying to make is knowing your personal 100% effective range in hunting conditions present , and when it's best to pass up a questionable shot at any given range .
I'd rather help a new archer to get within their effective range than to encourage them to stretch their limits and take "pot shots" at deer just outside their shooting range .
It's not unethical to take shots within your effective range , regardless of the distance , but it is unethical to take questionable shots and flinging arrows way outside your effective range .
Every situation is different in the woods when shooting at live deer . When in doubt , let down and pass on the shot . If it feels right , you are confident in making the shot and is within your 100% effective range under the hunting conditions present , go for it .
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#879619 - 08/21/08 12:54 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Radar]
POSSUM HUNTER
16 Point


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 10212
Loc: Over yonder

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 Originally Posted By: Radar
 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
 Originally Posted By: pubhunter17
Sorry on the Bushman show and watched Lee kill two deer at fifty yards plus.I thought that was pretty cool and sorta stupid.I don't feel like that is an ethical shot but he stated if your going to do it for a living you have to take the shot when you can.I going to pratice at 50 yrds but I don't think I'll shoot an animal at that distance.

Thats the problem with many businesses today No ecthic's.I wonder how many guys that would not take that 50 yard plus shot saw it and say if he can do it so can I.???They never show the gut shot unrecovered deer. They only show the perfect shot and perfect recovery's. I used to watch all the hunting shows. Don't watch any of them anymore. I prefer the one man uneditted show when I hit the woods.Some days are perfect,some not so perfect. They're all good if I'm in the woods.



Just like on a hunting forum , No one will talk about the shots they missed or wounded , just brag about the good shots they made . It's human nature I guess .
I have nothing against an accomplished archer and bowhunter taking a shot within their effective range , regardless of the range . The point I have been trying to make is knowing your personal 100% effective range in hunting conditions present , and when it's best to pass up a questionable shot at any given range .
I'd rather help a new archer to get within their effective range than to encourage them to stretch their limits and take "pot shots" at deer just outside their shooting range .


very well said
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#880394 - 08/21/08 09:09 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: POSSUM HUNTER]
Food Plot 101
8 Point


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 2453
Loc: Goodlettsville,TN USA

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I misjudged a 48yrd. shot last year for 40. I made the kill but the shot was way low and I had to track for 3/4 mile. I won't do it again unless I am dern sure of the yardage.
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#882972 - 08/23/08 07:16 PM Re: Fifty yard shots.Who's tried it? [Re: Food Plot 101]
LIL JOKER
14 Point


Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 9526
Loc: tennessee

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i like to get out back and shoot 40 yds..its makes them 25 shots alot better..but in the woods 30 yds is about all i can get..most times im hunting thickets and a 25 yd shot is about all i can get
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