#858158 - 08/07/08 02:27 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: MFBAB]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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In that definition of "Mature" are we talking 3.5, 4.5 or older?
Biologically, a buck is considered mature at 4 1/2 and older, but most of the data I'm using is for bucks 5 1/2 or older.
Does that mean that the other 92-95% of the mature bucks were either harvested off of that property or died in other ways?
In a free-ranging situation, few deer ever make it to maturity. Natural mortality (illness), predation, poaching and car-deer collisions take deer every year. A large number of yearling bucks, even without any hunting mortality, dwindles to just a few mature bucks as they age and die of other causes.
I would love to see our harvest data if the 1.5 year old harvest was reduced to 0% instead of Approx. 50%, I just believe you would start seeing a major difference in high end (for TN standards, not Iowa)within a couple of years.
Catoosa has had regulations in place for years that severely limit yearling buck harvests. Yet how many monster mature bucks are being killed off Catoosa?
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#858163 - 08/07/08 02:29 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16942
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Catoosa has had regulations in place for years that severely limit yearling buck harvests. Yet how many monster mature bucks are being killed off Catoosa?
BY NO MEANS has Catoosa been managing for mature bucks.
And, IMO, it is quite a stretch to call that QDM.
Basically, Catoosa has just moved the young buck slaughter from yearling bucks to 2 1/2-yr-old bucks. I don't see that there's many more bucks living to 4 1/2 or older than there was prior to Catoosa's starting antler restrictions. And most of those surviving, are the ones with small antlers --- the main reason they didn't get shot earlier.
Not to say that most Catoosa hunters aren't happier than before. They are killing a lot of "nice" 2 1/2-year-old 8-pointer which have replaced a lot of "nice" yearling 4-pointers. But this is a long way from "mature" bucks.
I am happy to see some great habitat improvements going on at Catoosa, and look forward to an increase in antlerless hunting opportunities there. Maybe someday, Catoosa can become a good model for QDM. But today, it's a model for how antler restrictions protect most yearling bucks.
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#858171 - 08/07/08 02:35 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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MFBAB
10 Point
Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 2916
Loc: Memphis, TN
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If 5.5 means mature I can understand your #'s. I think most people mean 3.5+ when they say mature on the forum, I could be wrong but that's my assumption. I would think a much higher percentage of an age class could be recruited to 3.5 years old, right? I'm not trying to stir, I just wanted to clarify thet.
What did "BY NO MEANS" mean Wes?
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#858177 - 08/07/08 02:39 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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MFBAB
10 Point
Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 2916
Loc: Memphis, TN
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Gotcha. LOL, It is under my stand!
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#858185 - 08/07/08 02:46 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BowGuy84
10 Point
Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 4847
Loc: Nashville, TN and Louisville, ...
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This is a great thread if we can keep people from taking offense to others postitions and beliefs.
Few questions what is "high-grading"
BSK, do you have data on what has been harvested off of your land in the past 12 years? Stupid questions...rephrase as can we see it?
Wes, I think your perspective on Catoosa is interesting and in a high degree correct...but what about the changes and survival stratigies that bucks learn from 1.5 to 2.5? I know there are different changes each year and each buck is different, but there is a big change in this time...I believe.
Again...one of the best threads i have seen in awhile
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#858198 - 08/07/08 02:59 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point
Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15416
Loc: Rutherford County, TN
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Bryan...the answer is no! Could the state take steps to improve the overall quality of our whitetails? Yes to some extent. Kentucky is a good example. However, I believe commercialism of all these pro hunting shows have given the majority of weekend hunters completely un-realistic expectations. That's it in a nutshell.
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#858200 - 08/07/08 03:00 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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BY NO MEANS is a 3 1/2-yr-old a "mature" buck!  When I talk about "mature" buck hunting, I am generally talking about 5 1/2-yr-old and older bucks. I'm specifically hunting for 5 1/2 and 6 1/2-yr-old bucks. Technically, a 4 1/2-yr-old is the first age class that should be considered "mature". So we have "mature", and then we have "fully mature". 
Correct. A 4 1/2 year-old buck is "mature," but you often hear biologists and hunters refer to bucks as being "fully mature" which means 5 1/2 or older.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#858201 - 08/07/08 03:00 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: MFBAB]
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Team Browning
8 Point
Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2029
Loc: Chattanooga
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I think what a lot of hunters lack is perspective. It's like asking - how many people live to be 65 or 75? Because of things like predation, die offs attributable to EHD/ Blue Tongue and the like, deer really are fortunate to make it to see their 5th birthday. Add in things that affect antler growth (since one thing we arent considering is - what if a deer is 5 1/2 but not sporting big headgear he isnt as likely to get killed and therefore counted in the survey) and you start to see how rare it is to see a big antlered deer. I think too that the televised hunting shows set an unrealistic expectation for a lot of people. I love to watch them and admit to probably being somewhat guilty of this myself.
For people to expect the TWRA to be able to manage something as ethereal as an entire deer population across the entire state is the height of foolishness. There are too many variables that they have no control over that can undo the best of intended programs. I think forums like this, or BSK in this case your post, are where the education of our fellow hunters has to start. As has been pointed out here and discussed ad infinitum, people hunt for different reasons. As long as there are people with expectations that really will never be met, there will be people griping that the TWRA are'nt serving their interest. I say thanks to the folks at the TWRA and in this instance, thanks to Bryan for this post.
Edited by Team Browning (08/07/08 03:01 PM)
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#858206 - 08/07/08 03:03 PM
Re: The realities of managing for mature bucks
[Re: MFBAB]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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If 5.5 means mature I can understand your #'s. I think most people mean 3.5+ when they say mature on the forum, I could be wrong but that's my assumption. I would think a much higher percentage of an age class could be recruited to 3.5 years old, right? I'm not trying to stir, I just wanted to clarify thet.
Most consider mature to be 4 1/2 or older.
Yes, you can definitely get a higher percentage of bucks to 3 1/2 or older. On WELL-MANAGED properties in TN, I generally see 3 1/2 or older bucks making up 25-30% of the total antlered (1 1/2+ year-old) buck population. But also in most areas of TN, 3 1/2 year-old bucks only average 105 to 110 gross. Yet their range of possible scores is realistically anywhere from 60 to 160 gross. But the majority fall within +/- 10 inches of the average. So the majority of the 3 1/2 year-old bucks score from 95 to 120.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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