Good post, Bryan.

Regarding the percentages of mature bucks scoring above 150, I wonder how that percentage would change if we could eliminate high-grading?

I will have to review the King Ranch's data and see what percent of their mature bucks gross over 150 (since their antler score by age-class data almost perfectly matches most of TN). But I don't think it is much higher.

In that definition of "Mature" are we talking 3.5, 4.5 or older?

Does that mean that the other 92-95% of the mature bucks were either harvested off of that property or died in other ways?

I would love to see our harvest data if the 1.5 year old harvest was reduced to 0% instead of Approx. 50%, I just believe you would start seeing a major difference in high end (for TN standards, not Iowa)within a couple of years.

Catoosa has had regulations in place for years that severely limit yearling buck harvests. Yet how many monster mature bucks are being killed off Catoosa?

If 5.5 means mature I can understand your #'s. I think most people mean 3.5+ when they say mature on the forum, I could be wrong but that's my assumption. I would think a much higher percentage of an age class could be recruited to 3.5 years old, right? I'm not trying to stir, I just wanted to clarify thet.

What did "BY NO MEANS" mean Wes?

BY NO MEANS is a 3 1/2-yr-old a "mature" buck!

When I talk about "mature" buck hunting, I am generally talking about 5 1/2-yr-old and older bucks. I'm specifically hunting for 5 1/2 and 6 1/2-yr-old bucks. Technically, a 4 1/2-yr-old is the first age class that should be considered "mature". So we have "mature", and then we have "fully mature".

If 5.5 means mature I can understand your #'s. I think most people mean 3.5+ when they say mature on the forum, I could be wrong but that's my assumption. I would think a much higher percentage of an age class could be recruited to 3.5 years old, right? I'm not trying to stir, I just wanted to clarify thet.

His data indicates the local buck age structure of this free-ranging herd maxed out at 5-8% of the buck population being mature. Interestingly, that is what I see on well-managed TN lands, mature bucks making up 5-8% of the buck population. That's around 1 buck out of 20 being mature. And as hard as mature bucks are to see and kill, that would not be many bucks harvested across the state if hunters are only killing mature bucks.

Bryan...the answer is no! Could the state take steps to improve the overall quality of our whitetails? Yes to some extent. Kentucky is a good example.

Few questions what is "high-grading"

Wes, I think your perspective on Catoosa is interesting and in a high degree correct...but what about the changes and survival stratigies that bucks learn from 1.5 to 2.5? I know there are different changes each year and each buck is different, but there is a big change in this time...I believe.

If we were magically able to prevent hunters from killing anything OTHER THAN mature bucks, would this distribution be the same? My hunch is that the 5-8% is due primarily to hunters taking bucks before they ever reach maturity.

What's your thoughts?

Correct. With no harvest of deer until they are mature, the top-end will be 25% fully mature. That is what the 800,000+ acre King Ranch has. I have also seen that percentage in high-fences, where poaching, car-deer collisions, and predation are very limited to non-existent.

But even on the King Ranch, which has the highest harvest density of mature bucks of anywhere that I know of (outside of high-fences), they are only killing one mature buck per 1,200 acres. And those aren't just top-end mature bucks but any mature buck (they kill mature "management" bucks). Considering the average area of TN where land-ownership patterns are 50 to 100-acre parcels and a couple of hunters per parcel, how many hunters would go home empty handed for the one lucky hunter per 1,200 acres? We would have an astoundignly low hunter success rate. I don't think hunters would really like the results of "mature buck only" management.

BY NO MEANS has Catoosa been managing for mature bucks.
And, IMO, it is quite a stretch to call that QDM.

I agree Wes. Catoosa is not managed for MATURE bucks. But MFBAB asked about what the result would be if 50% of the harvest wasn't yearling bucks. In 2006, Catoosa hunters only killed 9% yearling bucks. The low percentage of yearlings in the harvest, over numerous years, hasn't resulted in a bunch of huge mature bucks in the harvest. In fact, in 2006, mature bucks only made up 0.4% of the Catoosa harvest.

The point is, by lowering the percentage of yearling bucks in the harvest, lots more mature bucks won't always be the result.

Here is the true reality to managing for mature bucks in tn. What we need is for some folks to stop thinking that tn hunters are stupid, unable to hunt for mature bucks,...

i have yet to talk to nor see anyone ever post on this site or ,which i talk to in person, that they would not shoot on a regular basis 125 to 140 inch 3.5 plus bucks in this state.

I think tn hunters have very realistic expectations.

What tn hunters are faced with is some of the lowest deer density per square mile totals on the deer population over any state around us.

SO,.. we have made small gains.

By the way,.. whats the hunter density compared to the deer density at the ranch? And also,.. what about doe harvest,. is doe harvest kept in line to provide adequate habitat for the total deer herd?

Is all counties in TN capable of producing big bucks....Or is it just a small area in TN???? Just alil Question....I have seen some very nice buck come from all over TN

No one has said hunters are stupid. However, I have data that clearly shows just how hard mature bucks are to see and kill. A hunter doesn't have to be stupid not to see mature bucks when they exist in harvestable numbers. They simply need to be an average hunter. The average hunter has a VERY difficult time seeing and killing mature bucks. That's just a fact. Those animals are EXTREMELY wary creatures, easily able to avoid us lousy predators (and we humans are lousy predators).




There are several people that regularly post on this site that wouldn't consider shooting a buck under 4 1/2 or under 140.




I strongly disagree. When you post "125 to 140 inch 3.5 plus bucks" your not being realistic right there. The majority of 3 1/2 year-old bucks in TN gross under 120.




That's not accurate either.




We have actually made HUGE gains. We used to kill over 70% yearlings. Now we kill 50% yearlings and some counties are as low as 35% yearlings. 10 years ago a 3 1/2 year-old buck on trail-camera was a rare event. Now they are commonplace. Go over to the Trail-Camera Forum and look at all the pictures of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks being posted.

Deechaser007,

It's obvious your mind is made up that the TWRA is doing a lousy job managing the deer herds. It is also obvious your aren't interested in facts. You WANT to believe only what your perceptions tell you is correct. If the best science knows at this time is of no interest to you, I have nothing else to say.

I like the no yearling rule, I think a 2.5 year old deer is a totally different animal than a 1.5, they are not fully mature but they are much better equipped for survival at that point if they make it there at all.

I don't think it takes a lot of land to produce and hold mature bucks. The key is habitat and intrusion. You build a 15 acre thicket and they out of it and I guarentee you'll have a mature buck take up residence. building a thicket is easy, staying out of it and not intruding on your own land is hard.
Killing the buck that makes a home there is even harder.

BSK

Would a buck harvest of:
25% 1.5
30% 2.5
25% 3.5
15% 4.5
5% 5.5+
With an average rack score of some were around 100" to 125" for all the deer over 3.5+

Be realistic?

We have a winner!

Then me and my ajoining land owner should have about 100 mature bucks. I hope they move in soon, or just 100 bucks would be nice.

Possible? Absolutely. The questions are, at what harvest density and what restrictions would produce those percentages.

I would put the average gross score for bucks 3 1/2 and over a little higher though. Probably 110 to 135, as hunters are generally sellective, taking the best bucks of each age-class.

What is MS harvest rate comparied to what I listed above?

I can almost gaurantee one thing (science anad studies aside).
If a "monster racked buck" comes by, 98% of ALL hunters are
going to try and take that buck. I am talking about an absolutely
huge racked buck. When that's the case......AGE OF THE BUCK WILL
GO "OUT THE WINDOW"! When a very special buck shows, that has a
huge rack, you had better take him when you can. Nothing against
aging deer, but you had better be focused on a shot if you want
a chance to take that deer.

The only exception would be an undisturbed, food plot, shooting
house, and TV hunt type situation.

I don't know, you tell me.

I'm assuming it's pretty close.

Your right about that. If I see any thing over 120" where I hunt age want matter.

The only way to greatly reduce high-grading is to simply not kill any deer younger than a certain age (whereby the antlers are not part of the harvest criteria). IF no bucks were killed before they were 4 1/2 years old, there would be little high-grading. But when most bucks are killed before they're 3 1/2, there is substantial high-grading, with or without any antler restrictions.

That's not true at all. You can kill as many young bucks as you want and not come anywhere close to high-grading the buck population. As long as "size of the antlers" doesn't enter into the equation for pulling the trigger, then there will be no selection either way. For decades this was the case since anything that had "horns" was targeted. No offense but the problem of high-grading arose with the onset of QDM and the fact that hunters began passing up bucks based on antler characteristics. (FYI - This isn't a slam on QDM, it's a slam on "bastardized QDM" which elevates antlers to the forefront of management goals.)

First off, I have been an avid reader for the last several years and rarely post. I love this site as for the most part my life is consumed with deer hunting. If its not season, I'm usually looking at aerial photos and topo maps and planning strategy, etc...This is a great post so I thought I would chime in and get some opinions. I am all for strict management and chasing after mature deer. But I will also say that if a 130" 2 1/2- 3 1/2 walks by me, I will be giving it my best shot.

To all and especially BSK what are your thoughts on Ames Plantation and the management program they have going? (Aside from personal opinions of price, # of hunters, trespassers, etc) but of the management they use. Taking into consieration that with that amount of land and 115 members, it is far easier to use rack scoring as a field guide rather than other age determinants for the average hunter. The scoring system they use based on data from Ames is aiming towards protecting 2 1/2 yr olds and allowing them to reach 3 1/2. Last yr the first 5 1/2 yr old bucks (2) were taken with neither scoring over 130" gross. Yet every yr numerous 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 yr olds are taken that have reached well into 135-150 range with one being 165". Do you feel that this is "high grading"? Is there a way to steer away from this? (again considering that the average hunter may not be great at aging deer on the hoof without using antlers as a judge.

Ames should be a great research area and management opportunity with that amount of land, a variety of terrains, and sound management ( Dr. Craig Harper among others ) plenty of nutrition, and a good area of the state as far as deer numbers are concerned. Thoughts on the management?

I think there are far more hunters on this forum who practice Trophy management and calling it QDM .

I do not agree.
It would be very hard to practice trophy management unless you have 4,000 to 5,000 acres or more to control. Plus I dont see many here saying they would not kill a deer under 5.5. Most of the deer that QDM targets are around 3.5 and that is what I see a lot of people on here practicing.

BSK, do you have data on what has been harvested off of your land in the past 12 years? Stupid questions...rephrase as can we see it?

I agree. Choosing which buck to harvest by antler size will cause the most problems with high-grading. That's why I always say (and practice) harvesting by age regardless of antler size.

Now if a 150 gross 2 1/2 year-old walks in front of me, I'm going to do some high-grading! But in reality, that situation has never occurred.

You can kill as many young bucks as you want and not come anywhere close to high-grading the buck population. As long as "size of the antlers" doesn't enter into the equation for pulling the trigger, then there will be no selection either way. For decades this was the case since anything that had "horns" was targeted.

No offense but the problem of high-grading arose with the onset of QDM and the fact that hunters began passing up bucks based on antler characteristics. (FYI - This isn't a slam on QDM, it's a slam on "bastardized QDM" which elevates antlers to the forefront of management goals.)

For those practicing a combined antler/age buck harvest critieria, problems can arise later on. As Wes keeps pointing out, if hunters quickly kill top-end 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year-old bucks, but not bottom-end 3 1/2 year-old buck, what is left to reach maturity? Those small-antlered 3 1/2 year-old bucks that were passed up. And if a buck is small-antlered at 3 1/2 he will usually be small-antlered at maturity. Not always but usually.

In fact I've seen that occur. Hunters are killing some really top-end 3 1/2 year-olds off a property every year, but the mature bucks they see and kill are actually of lesser quality than the 3 1/2s. Why? Because they are high-grading out all the bucks that will be top-end mature bucks before they are mature, leaving only the lesser-quality antlered middle-aged bucks to mature.

BSK,

Please post that pic of your highest-scoring buck and his age.

Largest 3 1/2 year-old buck (gross 157) I've seen in the my area:

BSK,

Thanks for posting this pic, and every time I see it, I just think "WOW!" --- What a beautiful and magnificent Tennessee buck!

BSK-Were those bucks on scrapes in the trail cam pics?

BSK,

Thanks for posting this pic, and every time I see it, I just think "WOW!" --- What a beautiful and magnificent Tennessee buck!

Based on average age-class gains,
what would you estimate your 157 gross 3 1/2 "likely" would have scored had he lived to 5 1/2?

Also, based on same, what would you estimate a 135 gross 2 1/2-yr-old buck might score at 5 1/2?

Every time he posts this picture, I think.... "Bend that bill on that hat a little man!"

I have the upmost respect for you Brian, but when I see your hat, it screams DORK!!!

Wes, the neck on the deer in the first picture looks too thick to me to be a 1.5 year old deer. What method did you do to have him aged?

Excellent thread boys,
My hope is that every time someone mentions antler restrictions or compares Tn. to other states, they can look back to this thread to try to gain some intelligent perspective.

102

I let a large bodied ,mature buck buck walk last fall because it didn't meet the 130 min. antler restrictions on the land I was invited to hunt for a day , and our goal was to harvest does during the hunt . His body dwarfed the 2.5 year old 8 pt. that was in the same field , but I'd say he was borderline 130 gross .
I would have shot that same buck if I were hunting a tract without any antler restrictions . It's hard watching a mature buck in bow range for 15 minutes while sitting there with my bow , but I was waiting for a shot opportunity on a doe , and abiding by the rules set forth by the landowner .

You're not the only one strutandrut. Luckily my new TNdeer.com hat came with a prebent brim! Either that or Doublelung spent a lot of time bending it into shape for me.

BSK, I'm a little confused here.

When you and Wes speak of "high grading", do you mean in a "genetic" sense or just the reality that the best are being shot at 2 or 3 years old which leaves only the smallest mature bucks?

My question here is I guess, "Is it really hurting the genetic make up of the herd in question?"

Do not ever trust a taxidermist to pull your jaw bones for you, if you did. The reason I say this is because, we had a deer that JW-06 killed this past season and I had pictures of him from 2004 till current. He was 4.5 in 2004, which made him 7.5 this past season. When we got his jaw bones back, BSK aged the jawbone at 2.5 or 3.5. We were given the wrong jaw. I was a little ticked, but there is nothing I could do about it.

When you and Wes speak of "high grading", do you mean in a "genetic" sense or just the reality that the best are being shot at 2 or 3 years old which leaves only the smallest mature bucks?

My question here is I guess, "Is it really hurting the genetic make up of the herd in question?"

So it would also be wrong to assume there is zero harm being done to the future herd's antler genetics.

Unfortunately, in my club situation, I really don't believe going to a purely age-based criteria would make much difference regarding the high-grading issue. Most of the bucks making it to 4 1/2 and older would continue to be mainly those with smaller than average antlers among their birth peers (or cohort or whatever else you want to call them).

[quote=AlabamaSwamper]Like I said, highgrading is just evolution at work. And it's actually happening at a pretty fast pace since the Mississippi study saw a 10-17 inch decrease in antler size of 3-1/2 year old deer in a period of about six years. Unfortunately many hunters don't realize that large scale antler restrictions supposedly meant to grow bigger antlered deer (hunter assumption) often do the reverse.

. . . . . the new generation of hunters or the new to the sport hunters.

I guees mt point is as everyone else has said be happy with what you shoot but HAVE FUN. Sometimes I get so worked up over what,when,oe where to shoot that I don't get the FULL enjoyment of the sport and the reason I am in the woods to begin with.

Experience in the field is what answers most of these questions.

In your case, since you are interested in the large headgear I'd bump the rule to 4-1/2+ to make sure no top-end producing 3-1/2's get shot. Shooting EVERY deer that meets your minimum age criteria will eliminate the problem of highgrading.

Good post, Alan.

Now tell me again why ANY antler restrictions are needed on President's Island?

How do you minimize the impacts?

1. Set the restrictions high enough that only a small percentage is removed.

2. Set them high enough that they only affect old deer, after they have had ample opportunities to reproduce.