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#839466 - 07/26/08 09:40 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 736
Loc: NC USA

Offline
What is the average size of the fish stocked in the Caney right now anyway?
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#839470 - 07/26/08 09:42 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Buying your fish at the super market, Not killing any one particular species becasue they are not meant for tablefare...?

I understand that everyone has different opinions on the matter but statements like that are what is wrong with the goverment and with regulations that are one minded and not thinking out of the box...selfish to your own beliefs and wanting and pushing your beliefs into regulations and laws...

My opinion is that ALL species native to any water are a valuable resource to that water. I feel that the regulations should be geared to allow those species to populate and grow to what could be concidered average sizes and populations. Pushing for millions of small eating size fish is wrong and pushing for millions of large trophy fish is wrong.

Yes, it may take a long time to grow a big fish...But that is my point...the big fish should be a surprise not an expectation.


I have yet to see or hear anything, from our maker or TWRA or any other wildlife and resource agency, that says any species is not meant to be tablefare or is only meant to be a trophy fish...

Smallmouth are great tablefare as are largemouths...they fry up just like any other fish...And a 2lb bluegill is a fine trophy to anyone or a 4 to 5lb Crappie...All species have the few fish that are exceptionable in size and weight...If you catch one legally you should have no hard feelings throwing it back, mounting it or frying it...

Difference is that I have no hard feeling to anyone who believes 100% Catch & Release and would not care at all if I fished right next to someone like that and would never EVER critisize them or how they fished or ever mention to them "throw it back! That would have fed 2 mouths"...But some of those that do believe in Catch & Release 100% also believe that all regulations and laws should be fit to their beliefs with out exception to those who do not share the same feelings...You want to talk passion and teaching kids "sport fishing"...go to a boat ramp after a large bass tournement has released their "catch" and see what happens to hundreds of bass that were "catch & release"...DEAD as a hammer! To me that is a waste...killed for a point or a dollar bill in a game of sport...No thank you! My children will learn to kill for a purpose and not to take too much from one area and to leave some for tomorrow...We take what we can use and not our maxed out legal limits just because the law says we can...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#839718 - 07/27/08 06:55 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Stalker I agree 100% on the bass tourney stuff. That is a waste, and the reason summer time tourney should be outlawed or a better way to measure fish for weigh in designed.


Glad we agree on something, I was getting worried for a minute... \:\)

 Originally Posted By: captain hook
On the other, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. We have completely different views, not that there is anything wrong with that, just the way it is. Take care and good luck.


Works for me...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#841919 - 07/28/08 02:38 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: stillinscrubs]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: stillinscrubs
too many people are still going by that yahoos (Betolli's) BS. BW is one of the big BS eaters, right GL, CH, BD, and 7M?


This is the first I've heard about Betolli falsifying data for TWRA or losing a grant as a result. If it's true, it's an extremely serious charge. However, I'm very skeptical. First, falsifying data like that would almost certainly result in Betolli losing his job. However, Betolli's still on staff at TTU, and according to the Internet, he's still running the Tennessee Cooperative Fishery Research Unit with the USGS.

Second, it's a bizarre thing to falsify data for - how would he gain by hiding trout reproduction? Doesn't make any sense. Besides, since all of Betolli's research is done through Tenn. Tech, it seems like he'd have to have an awful lot of fisheries students "in" on the conspiracy to falsify the studies.

Third, where is the science "proving" brown trout reproduction in the Clinch and showing that the 2006 study was wrong? It doesn't seem to be published online. Does it actually exist?

If it's true, I'm sure someone will be able to provide some concrete proof. I bet a nickel nobody can.

As far as I know, TWRA's official line before the 2006 study was that they didn't have evidence of brown trout reproduction in the tailwaters, BUT the issue needed further study. The issue wasn't studied formally until 2006.

After the '06 study, TWRA stated that reproduction had been documented in the SoHo and the Watauga, but not the Clinch or Caney. This made a lot of people mad, and they bashed Betolli because his study didn't say what they wanted to hear. BUT I've still not seen anyone come forward with a 2" brown trout parr from the Caney.

By the way, Scrubs, since you're back and still bashing TWRA - how did all of your predictions about the brook trout turn out? Looks like they're doing pretty good to me. When are all the other trout in the river going to die of furunculosis like you predicted they would?

bd

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#841988 - 07/28/08 03:06 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41741
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Anyone notice how scrubs and tubs rhyme? \:\)

I don't know jack about reproductive rates or lack thereof on the Caney. If there is any, I'm pretty sure it is insignificant. I guess the thing scrubs does not and never will realize is my opposition to size regulations doesn't have a single freakin thing to do with reproductive rates or trophy trout. It has nothing to do with flyfishing, bait fishing or explosives. It is not concerned with canoes, kayaks, jet skis or river guides.

It's more important than that. And if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#842059 - 07/28/08 03:37 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 20787
Loc: lenoir city,tn

Offline
i will oppose c&r from p.o. to 61 bridge.
_________________________
experienced hunters know its not just a bushy white tail, its a big middle finger.

nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught


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#842239 - 07/28/08 05:25 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Never said Brown Trout spawned in the Clinch. The rainbows sure as heck used to, and in a big way until the mature sized fish were decimated by fishing pressure (bait slingers \:\) ).

I have been at several meetings where Jim Habera and Frank Fiss have given their new slide show which shows everything. Heck infoman was at one of the ones I went to last year.

It is well known through the TVA fisheries dept. and all over that Betolli's data was false, not whether he falsified it or not is pretty hard to say.


Betolli did a study all the way back in 1997, over 10 years ago, confirming that rainbows reproduce in the Clinch. I don't see anything, anywhere, where he said rainbows don't reproduce. The data showed that the fry were not surviving to catchable size well enough to support the fishery, but I haven't seen anything to refute that.

You basically called Betolli a fraud and a liar. Now you're saying it's "pretty hard to say" whether he falsified data or not. It smells like backpedaling to me.

You shouldn't make accusations like that if you're not able to back them up.

bd

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#842340 - 07/28/08 06:31 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
You said that Betolli used false data and said there was no trout reproduction on the Clinch. I assume you meant no rainbow trout reproduction.

So: Where did Betolli say there was no rainbow trout reproduction on the Clinch? Where did he present that data that you claim is false?

I see a 1997 study which says exactly what you're saying now, which is that there was some reproduction but poor recruitment to the fishery. That seems to totally contradict your claim that he was wrong about the trout.

If you're going to smear Betolli and call him a liar, you ought to back it up. Rather than accusing me of "twisting" stuff, can you post a link to Betolli's false data?

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/28/08 06:32 PM)

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#842416 - 07/28/08 07:15 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
ewc
8 Point


Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 2236
Loc: Knoxville

Offline
BD-

You're aruing with a FIGJAM. He knows everything. He's got a w&f dgree, so he's got to be right.

Betolli would not falsify research. His student Frank Fiss would not either.

Betolli's accomplishments:

http://www2.tntech.edu/fish/bettoli.html

Captain Hook's accomplishments:

http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/hook/hook.html

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#843068 - 07/29/08 08:40 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook

Go to the TWRA website and look under trout managemnt, find Norris, and the study is right there in front of your face.


CH, I've looked at the studies on the Clinch. What I'm saying is, I'm not seeing what you say is "right there in front of [my] face." Maybe I'm overlooking it. But I just don't see anything published by Betolli saying rainbow trout don't reproduce in the Clinch. To the contrary, I see Betolli recognizing over 10 years ago that rainbows DO reproduce in the Clinch, but not with enough recruitment to catchable sizes to support the fishery. To me, that's no different from what you have been saying.

 Quote:
It isn't just me, where is he now on the Clinch and Soho? Why did he suddenly lose his grant? Why did TWRA clearly state in the 2008-2012 report that they it had been falsley reported that pressure was not impacting the Clinch and there was no reproduction in the river? Why was it reported in 2006 that Betolli's creel survey stated that fishing pressure had not increased in a decade, when that was not the case as proven later?


Where is this 2008-2012 report you're talking about? I don't see any such study on TWRA's website. Could you link it for me? The most recent studies I see are the 02-06 Management Plan (by Habera et al.) and a 2005 creel survey (by Betolli). There's a solicitation for public comment online now for the 08 Management Plan, but that's not really a study. None of these say anything remotely like the things you claim are "clearly" stated about Betolli's data.

As far as Betolli "suddenly losing his grant," I don't see any evidence for that other than your word. I am skeptical. I noticed that the '02 MP was done by Habera et al, not Betolli, so I suspect that other folks with TWRA have been working on the Clinch for a long time and that the "sudden loss of grant" stuff is bunk. If you've got any evidence to prove me wrong, let me see it.

 Quote:
This is all in the reports, but why read when you can throw attacks at me.


I'd love to read all the stuff that you claim is out there, but I can't seem to find it. That's what is making me so skeptical.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/29/08 09:12 AM)

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