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#842239 - 07/28/08 05:25 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: captain hook]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Never said Brown Trout spawned in the Clinch. The rainbows sure as heck used to, and in a big way until the mature sized fish were decimated by fishing pressure (bait slingers \:\) ).

I have been at several meetings where Jim Habera and Frank Fiss have given their new slide show which shows everything. Heck infoman was at one of the ones I went to last year.

It is well known through the TVA fisheries dept. and all over that Betolli's data was false, not whether he falsified it or not is pretty hard to say.


Betolli did a study all the way back in 1997, over 10 years ago, confirming that rainbows reproduce in the Clinch. I don't see anything, anywhere, where he said rainbows don't reproduce. The data showed that the fry were not surviving to catchable size well enough to support the fishery, but I haven't seen anything to refute that.

You basically called Betolli a fraud and a liar. Now you're saying it's "pretty hard to say" whether he falsified data or not. It smells like backpedaling to me.

You shouldn't make accusations like that if you're not able to back them up.

bd

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#842293 - 07/28/08 06:00 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Never said Brown Trout spawned in the Clinch. The rainbows sure as heck used to, and in a big way until the mature sized fish were decimated by fishing pressure (bait slingers \:\) ).

I have been at several meetings where Jim Habera and Frank Fiss have given their new slide show which shows everything. Heck infoman was at one of the ones I went to last year.

It is well known through the TVA fisheries dept. and all over that Betolli's data was false, not whether he falsified it or not is pretty hard to say.


Betolli did a study all the way back in 1997, over 10 years ago, confirming that rainbows reproduce in the Clinch. I don't see anything, anywhere, where he said rainbows don't reproduce. The data showed that the fry were not surviving to catchable size well enough to support the fishery, but I haven't seen anything to refute that.

You basically called Betolli a fraud and a liar. Now you're saying it's "pretty hard to say" whether he falsified data or not. It smells like backpedaling to me.

You shouldn't make accusations like that if you're not able to back them up.

bd


One thing you can take to your grave, is that I don't back peddle.

I just went back and reread all the clinch stuff, that is where i have been for the last hour, and go read for yourself what was stated by both TWRA and Betolli.

You are also twisting things like a liberal media reporter. I said very clearly that the spawning on the Clinch was not enough to sustain the fishery, however the fish did successfully spawn until their numbers were decimated.
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#842340 - 07/28/08 06:31 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: captain hook]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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You said that Betolli used false data and said there was no trout reproduction on the Clinch. I assume you meant no rainbow trout reproduction.

So: Where did Betolli say there was no rainbow trout reproduction on the Clinch? Where did he present that data that you claim is false?

I see a 1997 study which says exactly what you're saying now, which is that there was some reproduction but poor recruitment to the fishery. That seems to totally contradict your claim that he was wrong about the trout.

If you're going to smear Betolli and call him a liar, you ought to back it up. Rather than accusing me of "twisting" stuff, can you post a link to Betolli's false data?

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/28/08 06:32 PM)

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#842416 - 07/28/08 07:15 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
ewc
8 Point


Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 2224
Loc: Knoxville

Offline
BD-

You're aruing with a FIGJAM. He knows everything. He's got a w&f dgree, so he's got to be right.

Betolli would not falsify research. His student Frank Fiss would not either.

Betolli's accomplishments:

http://www2.tntech.edu/fish/bettoli.html

Captain Hook's accomplishments:

http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/hook/hook.html

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#842524 - 07/28/08 08:08 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
You said that Betolli used false data and said there was no trout reproduction on the Clinch. I assume you meant no rainbow trout reproduction.

So: Where did Betolli say there was no rainbow trout reproduction on the Clinch? Where did he present that data that you claim is false?

I see a 1997 study which says exactly what you're saying now, which is that there was some reproduction but poor recruitment to the fishery. That seems to totally contradict your claim that he was wrong about the trout.

If you're going to smear Betolli and call him a liar, you ought to back it up. Rather than accusing me of "twisting" stuff, can you post a link to Betolli's false data?

bd


Go to the TWRA website and look under trout managemnt, find Norris, and the study is right there in front of your face.

It isn't just me, where is he now on the Clinch and Soho? Why did he suddenly lose his grant? Why did TWRA clearly state in the 2008-2012 report that they it had been falsley reported that pressure was not impacting the Clinch and there was no reproduction in the river? Why was it reported in 2006 that Betolli's creel survey stated that fishing pressure had not increased in a decade, when that was not the case as proven later? This is all in the reports, but why read when you can throw attacks at me. Why was this information wrong? Or is it wrong now?

I may have been somewhat over the line and harsh with my initial remarks, but have sufficient proof from others in his field of the reasons he lost his grants. Also, if you read that report, and then compare that report to the one from last year the two are totally different and it shows clearly that the data from 1997 was false and unsubstantiated. I firmly believe most of his studies are done with upmost accuracy and legitimacy. His reports on tournament bass mortality, paddlefish, and value of trout fishing are all excellent and should be read by anyone who finds this sort of stuff intriguing.

The only areas which he lacked was on the Clinch and South Holston reports. Were there limiting factors? Were there outside political pressures? Was his finding dead on accurate based on the data collected when in reality things were totally different? Who knows but it is possible, or maybe it isn't.

If I said or implied that he is an unethical POS, fraudulent in any aspects, and a liar. Then I definitely crossed a line which shouldn't have been crossed, and for that an apology is due. His findings have been disproved in part, and subsequently TWRA had sound biological data to change the regulations and did such.

The above might seem a little bit like back peddling \:\) , but I am just being honest and upfront. I am man enough to admit that I might have been wrong in my words, can you do the same?


Edited by captain hook (07/28/08 08:34 PM)
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#842530 - 07/28/08 08:11 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ewc]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: ewc
BD-

You're aruing with a FIGJAM. He knows everything. He's got a w&f dgree, so he's got to be right.

Betolli would not falsify research. His student Frank Fiss would not either.

Betolli's accomplishments:

http://www2.tntech.edu/fish/bettoli.html

Captain Hook's accomplishments:

http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/hook/hook.html



Not at all, but I do know somewhat how to have a discussion rather then be a child and do nothing but make personal attacks.

Typical LUCRO guy from the Clinch, I would say you are. Mad because you all lost the fight this time.

Please present your credentials for us all to see. Where is your degree from? Not high school, but higher education.

Please add something to the discussion. It is okay to have a differing opinion, you might get challenged but at least you can stand for something rather then hide behind childish personal attacks.
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#843068 - 07/29/08 08:40 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: captain hook]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook

Go to the TWRA website and look under trout managemnt, find Norris, and the study is right there in front of your face.


CH, I've looked at the studies on the Clinch. What I'm saying is, I'm not seeing what you say is "right there in front of [my] face." Maybe I'm overlooking it. But I just don't see anything published by Betolli saying rainbow trout don't reproduce in the Clinch. To the contrary, I see Betolli recognizing over 10 years ago that rainbows DO reproduce in the Clinch, but not with enough recruitment to catchable sizes to support the fishery. To me, that's no different from what you have been saying.

 Quote:
It isn't just me, where is he now on the Clinch and Soho? Why did he suddenly lose his grant? Why did TWRA clearly state in the 2008-2012 report that they it had been falsley reported that pressure was not impacting the Clinch and there was no reproduction in the river? Why was it reported in 2006 that Betolli's creel survey stated that fishing pressure had not increased in a decade, when that was not the case as proven later?


Where is this 2008-2012 report you're talking about? I don't see any such study on TWRA's website. Could you link it for me? The most recent studies I see are the 02-06 Management Plan (by Habera et al.) and a 2005 creel survey (by Betolli). There's a solicitation for public comment online now for the 08 Management Plan, but that's not really a study. None of these say anything remotely like the things you claim are "clearly" stated about Betolli's data.

As far as Betolli "suddenly losing his grant," I don't see any evidence for that other than your word. I am skeptical. I noticed that the '02 MP was done by Habera et al, not Betolli, so I suspect that other folks with TWRA have been working on the Clinch for a long time and that the "sudden loss of grant" stuff is bunk. If you've got any evidence to prove me wrong, let me see it.

 Quote:
This is all in the reports, but why read when you can throw attacks at me.


I'd love to read all the stuff that you claim is out there, but I can't seem to find it. That's what is making me so skeptical.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/29/08 09:12 AM)

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#843264 - 07/29/08 10:51 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

Offline
The plan I am referring to is in the 2006-2012 plan, and you cannot access the Betolli study on that website. I will scan a copy and post a link to it this afternoon so you can read it.

If you look at Betolli's creel surveys alot of the info. I site is contained in there as well.
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#843457 - 07/29/08 01:24 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: captain hook]
stik
TnDeer Old Timer
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 20312
Loc: lenoir city,tn

confused Online
i float the clinch often from p.o. to the bridge. i keep a few fish for the table and IF i catch one of the monster browns, it should be MY CHOICE whether to keep it or not. i paid for those fish just like everybody else and if i want to eat a few, i will.
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nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught


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#843466 - 07/29/08 01:33 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: waterman]
Homebrewer
4 Point


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 168
Loc: Smith County

Offline
no size limit
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