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#834689 - 07/23/08 02:41 PM I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs
B.D.
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Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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This forum doesn't have a poll option, so I'm linking to a different forum. I hope that's okay.

I've got a poll going here:

http://www.fishingtn.com/showthread.php?t=2532

Text:

To everyone who fishes the Caney:

As we all know, the Caney Fork is a great trout tailwater, but it gets more fishing pressure than just about any other trout water in Tennessee. With the river fishing really well for the last couple years, a lot of discussion has been starting about strengthening the size regulations on the river.

Current regs include no size limit on rainbow trout, with a "trophy" limit on brown trout where people can keep no more than two over 18" per day.

I support improving the size limits, but I've noticed that there are a lot of different thoughts floating around about what limits would be best. I have tried to include all the different options I've heard. If we can, I think it's best to speak with one voice on the issue. Therefore, I'm putting out "feelers" on several boards to see if there's any consensus about what the most popular size limit rule would be.

Let me know what you think!

bd

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#834735 - 07/23/08 03:08 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
gil1
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I guess we can't vote in that poll unless we're logged in? Or did I miss it?

Well, you know I wish it were all catch and release, but I guess I'd better try to be reasonable. 1 brown over 20 inches per day, and a 16-20 inch slot limit on rainbows. Wonder if they're going to keep stocking brookies? If so, they should definitely be a bonus fish - catch and release.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

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#834770 - 07/23/08 03:37 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
bowriter
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I favor no size limit on any of 'em. Reduce the creel limit if you want, but size limits on trout in the Caney never have and never will work.

For full explanation, see my article in Tn Sportsman- "Screw Your Ruler, The Story of a Crooked King."

Seriously. In a put and take situation...get real.
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#834854 - 07/23/08 06:37 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
stillinscrubs
4 Point


Registered: 08/16/07
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I agree with bowriter all fish that are solely put and take should have no size or creel limit.....GMAFB.

So every species of fish stocked by the state: stripers, hybrid striped bass, walleye, largemouth bass, crappie, trout, sturgeoon, muskies, what have I missed......

Good thing I no longer get Tn Sportsman the writing was just cheap manufactured poo, each article could be written for another state by simply changing the names on the bodies of water.

Get rid of the brookies, what a waste of money.

Scrubs

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#834862 - 07/23/08 06:42 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
I favor no size limit on any of 'em. Reduce the creel limit if you want, but size limits on trout in the Caney never have and never will work.

For full explanation, see my article in Tn Sportsman- "Screw Your Ruler, The Story of a Crooked King."

Seriously. In a put and take situation...get real.

All evidence to the contrary...
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#834875 - 07/23/08 06:51 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: stillinscrubs]
7mm08
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Bowriter, I like you, but I strongly disagree with you on this. Slot limits are essential even in a put and take fishery. Without any regulatons, there is NO regulations. In other words the threat of getting busted by johnny law with ruler in hand, the killers will run rampant as they have on the Clinch and other tailwaters.

One quick question. Have you ever paid for a plane ticket or spent time to go out west and fish? Why did you do that..for the quality fishing, provided by slot limits, and catch and release limits that have been in effect for years. How many people come to TN to trout fish vs those that travel to WY, MT, or even Arkansas for that matter. Quality management doesn't just envolve deer. If that's the case, kill every deer you can find and watch what happens to the herd in a year(although yes they can reproduce, but it too is artificial since there are already doe only, buck only, regs in place for management).

If you don't want regs on put and take trout streams, just quit stocking the things all together. Let mother nature take it course, and spend the money that you get on licenses on crappie, or bass fishing, although I would say a larger percent of fishing license go towards trout management in this state.
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#834878 - 07/23/08 06:53 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
Model70Man
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Instead of doing a size or creel limit, keep the regs the same, but do a trophy section where only 22" or above can be kept.
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#834918 - 07/23/08 07:16 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Model70Man]
bowriter
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Model 70- Explain to me just how you would do that and how you would enforce it. It didn't work 20 years ago. How would it be better now?

Now as to my statement re size limits. That stream is not stocked for the trophy fisherman. It is not stocked for the flyfisherman or the bait fisherman. It is stocked for the enjoyment of all fishermen, very few of whom would support a size limit or even understand it.

Why, pray tell, can't we just leave it alone. There are very few of us interested in trophy trout. Why can't it just continue to be managed for trout fishing?

And scrubs, I haven't written for that rag in 15 years. But I think I'll start again. \:\)

7mm08- No, I never have. Never gave it a thought. The trout fishing here is so much better, it never crossed my mind to fly somewhere and fish for smaller fish.

Now Gil- What evidence do you speak of?

I'm having fun, now.
_________________________

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#834926 - 07/23/08 07:20 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
trealtree
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Registered: 09/29/04
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\:\)
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#835013 - 07/23/08 07:46 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
waterman
4 Point


Registered: 03/22/08
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Loc: roane county

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browns on the caney are much better after the 18" limit was put into effect. I wouldnt be opposed to a slot limit on the rainbows.
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#835080 - 07/23/08 08:16 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
Stalker
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Registered: 12/06/04
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Model 70- Explain to me just how you would do that and how you would enforce it. It didn't work 20 years ago. How would it be better now?

Now as to my statement re size limits. That stream is not stocked for the trophy fisherman. It is not stocked for the flyfisherman or the bait fisherman. It is stocked for the enjoyment of all fishermen, very few of whom would support a size limit or even understand it.

Why, pray tell, can't we just leave it alone. There are very few of us interested in trophy trout. Why can't it just continue to be managed for trout fishing?

And scrubs, I haven't written for that rag in 15 years. But I think I'll start again. \:\)

7mm08- No, I never have. Never gave it a thought. The trout fishing here is so much better, it never crossed my mind to fly somewhere and fish for smaller fish.

Now Gil- What evidence do you speak of?

I'm having fun, now.


Get'm BW!!

I think that the regs should support having a fishery not a trophy fishery...We are experiencing the same crap on Smallmouth over here in Region IV and it stinks...I understand some of the slot limit for brood fish but in some good areas they have changed to 1 fish 20"...I'm sorry that is managing the entire fishery for trophies only and that aint what my dollars should be funding. You can not have or expect to have trophy fish on your line every time you go...what kinda trophy would that be if you caught them everyday?
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#835290 - 07/23/08 09:51 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
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I think managing browns for 'trophy' status is fine but leave the rainbows and brookies for the dinner table
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#835333 - 07/23/08 10:26 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Doskil]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: Doskil
I think managing browns for 'trophy' status is fine but leave the rainbows and brookies for the dinner table


Not stirring, but couldn't you live with seven 15 1/2 inch rainbows for supper per outing?
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#835369 - 07/24/08 12:26 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Okay. Being serious now. Here is the problem with slot limits and most size limits on trout in a place such as the Caney. I should say, here are the problems because they are manifold. And let me also state, I throw them all back so I am not affected by any kind of limits.

#1- As I stated earlier, the majority of fishermen, just as with the majority of hunters, are not trophy enthusiasts. Therefore, that river would be managed for a minority. That, to me, is not fair.

#2-It is my belief that the reason for the size of the browns in the Caney is that they are more predatory and to some degree, harder to catch once they reach a larger size. I am not convinced the 18" size limit has a single thing to do with it. Afterall, there are plenty of rainbows being thrown back to produce a trophy fish in common amounts. Few are actually caught over 8#.

#3- RE trophy waters: If you have trophy water on a river, it must either be a stretch at the mouth or at the head. It can't be in the middle. When this was first discussed, I'm thinking maybe 15 years ago. I pointed out to the then head of enforcement, the enforcement problems and how easy it would be for anyone ticketed to get it thrown out of court. Those problems still exist. You have to ban live bait fishing and go to barbless, single hooks. You can't do that in the middle of a floatable river and make a case. Just as you can't ticket someone for having an undersized fish in the middle of a floatable river. No judge would even hear it.

#4- The trout fishing on the Caney is better than any I have seen out West. Keep in mind, I lived in WY for 10 years and fished most, if not all of the major streams in WY and MT. By a long mile, I have caught far bigger rainbows and browns out of the Caney in one year than I caught out there in 10 years.

#5- When you take the first five into consideration, then add the incredible fishery that river is right now (crowding not included)I can't see a reason for change. There is ample opportunity to catch trophy fish right now and that opportunity has been there for almost as long as I can remember. You just have to know how, when and where to fish for big fish. A size limit or slot limit will not change that. For that to change, the entire river would have to be no live bait, single barbless hooks and closed to fishing for at least three months each year. And that is just not fair.

Now my field of expertise is not in icthyology. But it appears to me, those of us who would really like to catch trophy fish, whatever your definition of that is, are already practicing catch and release. So do we want now to force our views on others who may not agree with us? Gil, didn't I just read a post of yours in answer to a post from Troy that was against that very thing? \:\)

Come on guys. Keep in mind, that river is only 26 miles long from dam to mouth. And for the most part, less than half of it gets any fishing pressure. If you want to declare from Stonewall to the mouth trophy water, I'll support that...cause that's where the real trophy fish are right now.

I wonder if you realize I started this whole dang thing back 25 years ago with an article, "Silver Bullets of the Caney Fork." Until that ran, you never saw another fisherman on that creek.
_________________________

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#835392 - 07/24/08 02:16 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
stillinscrubs
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Registered: 08/16/07
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Loc: nashville, tn

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BW,

You're a legend in your own mind. Anyone who buys the load you shovel deserves what they get.

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#835433 - 07/24/08 05:04 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: stillinscrubs]
bowriter
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 Originally Posted By: stillinscrubs
BW,

You're a legend in your own mind. Anyone who buys the load you shovel deserves what they get.


Perhaps you'd care to elucidate?
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#835446 - 07/24/08 05:28 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
bowriter
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Well said C. Hook. No problem with your views. If the Caney was constantly stocked, I would have no problem with slot limits. My posisiton is, with the stocking and the number of fish not caught or caught and released, there is no need for it. As it is, it is bascially a fish pond...just a long one.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#835758 - 07/24/08 08:52 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6349
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Of course we don't NEED slot limits, but do we want them? I wish I had the data from the Tech survey taken a few years ago. We used the results as evidence to try to get the brown trout regs. on the Caney. Basically, the data showed that things have changed. The definition of a "quality fishing experience" is changining dramatically from years ago. Yeah, the states around us have changed, and we're ripe for a change, too.

I think that if you build it, they will come. In other words, those that disagree can be swayed once they see the difference. I believe that's what happened on Dale Hollow when people were adamantly against limits but are for limits now.

According to the survey, people want to catch bigger trout. They're willing to give a little to do that because what they get back is much better. Instead of driving to AK, KY, or GA for that experience, they'd like a shot at that here. There are plenty of ditches that are stocked in the urban stocking program here that can be unprotected and solely for the meateaters.

But the Caney has room for tons of improvement in that fish are starting to holdover well. Obviously, and I'll never understand why folks don't get it, but the more you protect the fish, the more and bigger the fish will be to catch. Only a fool can't figure that one out. "Size limits don't work." - if enforced, name me one example in the world where they don't, just one. Anyone that has ever fished a healthy catch and release trout river knows differently.

There is no data on how effective the brown limits are on the Caney. The science has not been done, and there are too many factors at work. The overwhelming majority believes that they are producing astonishing results because the big brown fishing has been so off the charts, but although it may seem obvious that the regs. are working, nobody knows for sure why there has been such a big brown explosion.

Just like the Cumby in KY, the only way to know if it works is to try. The results have been remarkable, and the public has been swayed. They love the rainbow slots and the 1 brown over 20. And as much as I love the Caney and see its potential, it can't, won't, hasn't, and never will fish as well as the Cumby (or not consistently) because there are few protections for the fish.

I'm really sick of hearing that something won't or can't work because TWRA won't enforce the regs. That's a cop-out. You put pressure, do the best you can, get TWRA behind it full-force, and soon the people will be behind it. They can be won over, but it takes time. Some folks will never play by the rules. And some others need to be slowly swayed into progressive management so that they can see and believe in the results themselves.

Really, no offense to anybody and all and this is just my opinion, but it's time to move on. It's time to stop living in the past. It's time to start believing that people can't change because they do, they have, and they will. Progressive management is working all around us. Not only that, people love the results. Everybody wins. The meathunters are happy because they get tons for supper and the fishermen are happy because the fishing is much better.

The other side benefit to regulation is that you force folks into a change in thinking - that a river is a precious and limited resource. For some folks, the Caney is a drive-thru fast food window. They pay for their license, they catch and eat all they can, they toss their trash in the driveway, and they move on to their next meal without thinking of any consequences to the resource.

I believe progressive management teaches people to think for just a little bit. Maybe they will even teach their kids to protect the resource. The reason I joke about the Caney being just a big ditch is because that's what some folks see when they take from it. In my mind, it's a much more complex and beautiful gal. Maybe we can enlighten some others to take stock in the resource instead of just using it as a drive-thru.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#835794 - 07/24/08 09:16 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
onerarebreed
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Registered: 07/23/08
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can anyone tell me what the leafy stuff growing in the Caney fork is.I have lived on the river all my life and it did not start growing there until a few years back.
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#835830 - 07/24/08 09:36 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
bowriter
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OKAY-MY BAD In my last post, it should have read if the Caney was NOT constantly stocked.

Now Gil. \:\) I never said size limits don't work. Of course they do. I am not convinced they would make much difference on the Caney in terms of rainbow trout. What I said was...and I stick by this, are they fair? I also said a trophy "piece of the river won't work". I stick by that as well.

I have no idea what survey you refer to re folks wanting bigger fish. But I suspect if you asked 100 fishermen on the Caney, they would all, 100% say they want bigger fish. Now ask them if they are willing to throw fish back to achieve that goal. The ones who speak fluent English might, by about 40%. But I am also pretty sure, at least 70% of those surveyed would just like to catch...and keep a limit of trout.

Remember, we here on this forum are accustomed to catching 20-50 fish a day. The average Caney fisherman is tickled to death with a limit.

I know as a staunch TU member, you have certain standards to adhere to. I also know you believe in those standards. I have no problem with that at all. But as you know, I don't keep trout. They are all C&R to me. But I do feel an obligation to the Joe Saturday fisherman. Right now, the Caney Fork just suits his needs ideally. And is that not, afterall, what that fishery should be about? That guy is not going to KY or wherever to catch bigger fish. That guy could care less about big trout if he can only keep one. That guy...just wants to catch him a limit of fish to eat. I don't have a problem with that. That is why that river is constantly stocked.

Now, stop stocking? That's a whole new ballgame. Then I am in your corner 100%.

RE the grass. I don't know what it is but it has been there a long time. It is just getting more prevalent.

Again, let me state. I don't keep any trout. So I have no personal axe to grind. Make the whole shebang no fish under 24 inches, I'm cool with that. But let's not apply QDM logic to a fishery equation.

And hasn't this become a dadgummed good discussion?
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#835836 - 07/24/08 09:37 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
bowriter
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Addendum...this sort of discussion is what I was thinking about when I suggested a float trip/campout.
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#835872 - 07/24/08 09:51 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
onerarebreed
Spike


Registered: 07/23/08
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Loc: Tn

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Does anyone know if the trout reproduce in the caney or not.I have cought several over the years and found them to have eggs in them. And I also believe the key to good trout in the caney is the amount of generation.I think you will see better fish of all species when the get the orfice installed in the sleuce gate at the dam.
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Life is a garden.Dig it
Countryfied and Satisfied and I aint gonna change my ways.

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#835887 - 07/24/08 09:56 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6349
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Lord,, I wish I could continue, but I have to go redneckin'. The carp are waiting.
It's all black and white in my pea brain, but the reality is that we're into a very gray area. I really would like to implement BSKish QDM data to a trout stream, but it doesn't work that way.
It's hard to win hearts and minds by asking people to just believe what you believe. I guess it's just a leap of faith deal, and you sometimes land on your azz.
Will continue after I get this disgusting slime off my face.



Edited by gil1 (07/24/08 09:57 AM)
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#835958 - 07/24/08 10:57 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6349
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
I know as a staunch TU member, you have certain standards to adhere to. I also know you believe in those standards.


Dangit, got held up from carpin'!

I want to make something clear. Yes, I believe wholeheartedly in those standards, but unfortunately, Trout Unlimited does not and will never back those standards. They are a coldwater conservation organization, not some fishing club. Nowhere in their mission statement will you find anything that has to do with catching big fish. The fact that there is usually good fishing in clean water is just a bonus.

When I was Pres. of the local chapter, I traveled along with many other TU members to speak to the Commission about the brown trout reg. proposal. In a complex round-about beuarocratic way, the regs. would definitely help TU's mission, but TU would not support my stance because regulation is none of their business unless it somehow effects the resource. For TU, the resource is the water, not the fish. I was not even allowed to say that I was a member of the organization.

Don't get me wrong - TU will gladly dangle stories and pics. of beautiful salmonids in order to boost membership, but when they go to Capitol Hill to try to change laws or even when TU fights the local battles, it will be about water, not fish.

It's sort of the "little known fact."


Edited by gil1 (07/24/08 11:00 AM)
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#836089 - 07/24/08 12:21 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Well the heck with them, then. I'm calling BSK. \:\)

That makes me so mad, I am going right straight to the Caney tomorrow and investigate. Then we'll see just what is what!
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#836584 - 07/24/08 06:39 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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 Originally Posted By: captain hook

Stalker I strongly disagree with you on the smallmouth regs, especially the river smallmouth regs. I am glad to see TWRA take a proactive approach and properly manage a very valuable resource. Of course most people who kill river smallies never take into consideration it takes them 8 years or so to reach 8"-10" long, and a 18" bass might be 14 years old or older.


For one I said that I understand slot limits to a degree for brood fish...for sustainablility of the fish population. But I disagree with the 1 fish over 18 or 20 inch rules because that is trophy only fishing...Why should smallies only be a trophy fish? Also, the info I found on smallies size to age raatio put them at 8 inches by age 3 and in the 18 inch by age 10 and older...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#836588 - 07/24/08 06:43 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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 Originally Posted By: captain hook

Stalker I strongly disagree with you on the smallmouth regs, especially the river smallmouth regs. I am glad to see TWRA take a proactive approach and properly manage a very valuable resource. Of course most people who kill river smallies never take into consideration it takes them 8 years or so to reach 8"-10" long, and a 18" bass might be 14 years old or older.


Also, you called the smallmouth a resource? With regs of 1 fish 18 to 20 inches who is resourcing them? Trophy hunters...that's who...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#836598 - 07/24/08 06:51 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Stalker]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Not everyone wants trophies evrey time they go fishing...they will be there naturally anyway...Why not use methods that allow for the future of the fishing instead of the quality of each individual fish...The experience and opportunity to fish should be above all else...Who wants to tell their young kids who are begging to keep the fish they caught..."sorry, its not big enough" Not me...I want my kids to experience the entire fishing experience from water to frying pan...How many fish are killed and wasted because they were too small? Ever hooked one not big enough and toss it back to just be a floater...Tears me up! Wast of that fishes life...could have been on my plate but no it will just rot in the water because some trophy reg says it's not big enough to keep.
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"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#836635 - 07/24/08 07:15 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Stalker]
stillinscrubs
4 Point


Registered: 08/16/07
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Stalker,

Smallmouth bass don't have a slot limit? I think what you are trying to say is if they had a slot limit, you could keep and eat some eating size fish....the breeding population would be protected, and people could keep a trophy if they chose....

Is that about right?

Scrubs

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#836692 - 07/24/08 07:48 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
onerarebreed
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Registered: 07/23/08
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you boys are just splitting hairs.just go out and enjoy nature as it exist,while you still can.The real trophy is in the experince and when that is lost all is lost.i been at this stuff since i was big enough to go fishin with my grandpa.Fish aint changed people have.
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#836771 - 07/24/08 08:26 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
gil1
12 Point


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 Originally Posted By: onerarebreed
you boys are just splitting hairs.just go out and enjoy nature as it exist,while you still can.The real trophy is in the experince and when that is lost all is lost.i been at this stuff since i was big enough to go fishin with my grandpa.Fish aint changed people have.


Good point, but I think that's just what some folks with a monster passion for the sport do. They believe wholeheartedly, and they want to spread the word. I know I can't help myself. Lord, read the serious deer forum sometimes. Now there's some passion!

Speaking of passion, I will add this. You know how I toss back my trout (except one 10-incher a year on an annual camping trip)? I don't care what the rest of the world believes, that's just me. So anyway, like Hook, I am 10x more passionate about catch and release river smallies for Hook's same reasons. The thought of ever killing one for any reason makes me want to The resource is too precious and easily depleted to waste on a supper plate. Again, I'm not dogging anyone for their thoughts - those are just mine.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#836852 - 07/24/08 09:20 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
mr.big
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smallmouth have a 16-21 slot on DH,,here what me and a couple friends think of it,,Rated R {L}.

dont open if offended by rednecks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YXQurRC3Lw


Edited by mr.big (07/24/08 09:21 PM)
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#836859 - 07/24/08 09:26 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: mr.big]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: mr.big
smallmouth have a 16-21 slot on DH,,here what me and a couple friends think of it,,Rated R {L}.

dont open if offended by rednecks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YXQurRC3Lw


"19 1/2....MOTHER %#@*!!!" Priceless! \:D
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#836864 - 07/24/08 09:29 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
mr.big
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we was prayin for something under 16,,sux to catch 10-12 fish between 16-21 .
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#836897 - 07/24/08 09:50 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: mr.big]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: mr.big
we was prayin for something under 16,,sux to catch 10-12 fish between 16-21 .

If not for the slot, though, perhaps you wouldn't have caught anything. Probably the reason you didn't catch any below 16 is that people killed a lot of those fish. I'm not dissing your beliefs at all, but your catch size is why I like the slot. It would be much better if it were all catch and release and you just bought your fish at Kroger. ;\)
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#836905 - 07/24/08 09:56 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
mr.big
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people aint kilin many legal,,heck you aint allowed but one big and one little un a day.
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#837030 - 07/25/08 05:52 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
mr.big
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throwin back 5 pound small jaws is just not normal,,we do as were told though,,and yes there is no lying about it they are a blast to catch,,
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#837346 - 07/25/08 08:50 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
MFBAB
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Slot lakes are frustrating in a tourney, that's for sure, I assume that's what the guy's in the video were doing.

I don't like to keep anything big, if you want a mount just take a pic, measure it and get a replica, it will last longer than a skin mount anyway.
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#837477 - 07/25/08 10:12 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
onerarebreed
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My point is you will drive your self crazy trying to make people change that don't want to.I spent thousands of dollars trying to manage my deer heard just to see small6 8 and 10 point bucks I let walk, cross a fence and get killed by someone who did not have the same standards as I.I applaude your passion for the sport and conservation efforts but more regulations are not going to change that guy who does not have the same standards as you.the deer thing made me so mad I could not enjoy the sport anymore.All you can do is have your own standards, you can't force those on someone else and neither can the TWRA.Lead by example sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.Thanks for letting me join in.
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#837583 - 07/25/08 11:13 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
bowriter
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When a management practice is biologically sound, I am for it 100%. When it is put in place to benefit a select group, I say elect Obama.
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#837605 - 07/25/08 11:23 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
gil1
12 Point


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Problem is, it is always put in place for a select group. Of the hundreds of folks I've talked to (my friends) about the Caney, all except 2 would give their first born for a completely catch and release river. You are one of them. I'm not saying that that mentality is the majority, I'm just saying that there's no way to do it where everyone's happy.

I do believe, though, that if it's not already here, the time is coming when the majority will be in favor of much stricter regulations. You may not see it, but I do. Times are achangin'. Our society fishes less and less to put dinner on the table. It is inevitable.

It's probably a bad statement about the hustle and bustle of society, but it's definitely better for the fish and the fishing.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#837625 - 07/25/08 11:34 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
onerarebreed
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Those bass are probly still just as dead.just because something is against the law doesn't stop a law breaker.upstanding citizens will abide, the average criminal dosn't care.And our prisons are still full of murders and rapist that those laws did not deter.And I wonder how many poachers the twra did not catch.If you hadn't been there they would have gotten away with it.Where do you fish on the caney anyway.I live on the river myself.Respond with private e-mail if you like.As you can tell I am new to this web site. but I am very intered in this river.Lived here for the most of my 42 years.If I turned in evryone for every illegal fish I saw kept i would have to have the twra on speed dial.I am lucky enough to go to that river everyday.Guess I kni of take it for granted.Thats my bad.
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#837633 - 07/25/08 11:36 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
bowriter
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Oh Gil...you don't have 100 friends. But yes, I'd support a 100% c&r with a caveat. I won't support a size limit.

This morning we caught slightly less than 30. We had six or eight over four pounds...well, maybe four over three...but we threw them all back.

If you want to make the Caney Fork, 100% C&R. Then stop the stocking. I'll back that. But if you continue the stocking, I oppose any further restriction.

Why...or how, can you on one hand, say, "We are putting these fish in this river for you to catch." And then say, "but you have to throw them all back."

It reminds very much of a blonde I met in a bar.
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#837682 - 07/25/08 12:24 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
onerarebreed
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Gentlemen,would you support a stretch of river say from the Rest aera up where no fishing is allowed .Thats where all the pressure is anyway.Not for ever of course but for a couple of years.What in your opinions would that result in.It would sure make it easy for the twra to police.
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Life is a garden.Dig it
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#837707 - 07/25/08 12:44 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter

If you want to make the Caney Fork, 100% C&R. Then stop the stocking. I'll back that. But if you continue the stocking, I oppose any further restriction.

Why...or how, can you on one hand, say, "We are putting these fish in this river for you to catch." And then say, "but you have to throw them all back."


Because by definition, that's what C&R is all about. Not only are we putting these fish in here for you to catch, but since it's C&R, your catching opportunities will be fantastic. It is for folks that really enjoy fishing, that want to catch bigger fish, that would rather catch more than eat more. The river is for entertainment value, not used as a food source. If you quit taking food from it, it will be even more entertaining.

I realize that some don't like catching big and more fish as much as they like to eat fish and have worse fishing, but that's what it's about. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone that's not starving doesn't beg for that kind of experience.

People pay a ton of money for that type of quality fishing experience all over the country. They bypass TN to go to those places and spend that money elewhere. We could offer it for free. I know it won't happen because the meathunters aren't quite ready to give up even one of their food source rivers for better fishing. If dynamiting were legal, they wouldn't own a rod, and I get that.

BW - I know you're making a point, but surely you aren't brain dead. If you stop stocking, the fish will eventually die out. If there's any natural reproduction on the Caney, it's a joke compared to what it would need to sustain the fishery. Perhaps that will change some day, but the Caney has to be stocked or there will be no trout.

Onerarebreed is right - I will drive myself crazy trying to make others understand, and I will not change many minds. But the wave of progressive management is coming because it makes more money than stocking for food. Those that like eating fish better than catching them will not be happy that they will have to go to the grocery.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#837716 - 07/25/08 12:49 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
gil1
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 Originally Posted By: onerarebreed
Gentlemen,would you support a stretch of river say from the Rest aera up where no fishing is allowed .Thats where all the pressure is anyway.Not for ever of course but for a couple of years.What in your opinions would that result in.It would sure make it easy for the twra to police.

I'm not sure I understand the point. Why would we not utilize the entire resource? I can't think of an upside to a no fishing section for even one day.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#837765 - 07/25/08 01:18 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
onerarebreed
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Sorry took so long been hulling butter beans.well would that not give them time to grow not as much stocking would be required.and would probably cut down on the number of fish that die from C&R.and believe me i see pleanty of fish where I live that die from that.a lot of keepers to.Why not just try it for six mo to a year.Of course a lot of local people will raise cane but a lot of them don't buy a trout stamp anyway. There are many size regs in place.I wonder if anything like that has been tried before.
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Life is a garden.Dig it
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#837818 - 07/25/08 01:59 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
B.D.
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Registered: 03/24/08
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If you were going to do that, why not just leave them in the hatchery runs longer? I'm sorry, I don't see how a no fishing zone on a stocked river makes any sense. I assume it's just some kind of exaggerated overstatement to prove a point, but I don't see how it proves any point since it's entirely apples and oranges from even the most extreme proposal on the drawing board right now.

bd

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#837844 - 07/25/08 02:19 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
onerarebreed
Spike


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Cause in the hatchery it is all about numbers.In the wild it is about genetics and the ability to survive adapt and reproduce. and some of these fish do reproduce i have caught fingerlings in my minnow traps in the spring during high water perods approximately three quaters of a mile away from where it empties into the river.and have seen a lot of 10 to 12 inch trout up in that same small creek a mile or better away from the river.And i am talkin about a small creek that dries completely up in mid summer.I just believe they need a chance to reproduce with the correct water conditions.Thats the main key for all species.and water conditions have improved over the last few years.
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Life is a garden.Dig it
Countryfied and Satisfied and I aint gonna change my ways.

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#837852 - 07/25/08 02:23 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
onerarebreed
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Shoot Im tierd of talkin bout it I think I will brave the rain and go to the river right now.I want some smoked trout and butter beans for supper.Later guys.thanks.
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Life is a garden.Dig it
Countryfied and Satisfied and I aint gonna change my ways.

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#837881 - 07/25/08 02:34 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
bowriter
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Onerare- No rain on the river. Rain like a sonagun when we left Lebanon at 4:30. Not a drop on the big ditch. Rained all the way home.

but I agree. I'm tired of talking about it, too. I'm going to go kill some carp.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#837892 - 07/25/08 02:50 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: bowriter]
bowriter
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Okay. I can't stand it. One last time. GIL: "BW - I know you're making a point, but surely you aren't brain dead. If you stop stocking, the fish will eventually die out."

Then why in the he11 should we have a size limit? They are all going to die. Dead is pretty permanent. What we need to lobby for is the stocking of 10# fish.

(Gil- I know what you are saying. I just couldn't resist.)

But the money to stock those fish come from all the fishermen. If we say to one group, the pargest group, you can't do that. Then it is fair for them to say to the rest of us, then quit spending our money here.

Now, can someone define for me just what is considered Betty's Island? I know it is not at the takeout point. But what do y'all call Betty's Island?
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#837914 - 07/25/08 03:07 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: onerarebreed]
B.D.
8 Point


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 Originally Posted By: onerarebreed
and some of these fish do reproduce i have caught fingerlings in my minnow traps in the spring during high water perods approximately three quaters of a mile away from where it empties into the river.


TWRA stocks fingerlings from time to time, so catching fingerlings doesn't prove anything. Typically, these fingerlings are 3-4 inches long.

The thing that makes me skeptical about reproduction is that nobody EVER catches a little 2-inch rainbow or brown trout parr in the Caney. On wild streams, those tiny little trout will take a fly every once in a while - I have caught them in the Smokies and in Colorado. But in the Caney, I never see fish below the smallest stocked size.

If there is any reproduction, it's very rare, and it's only maybe a handful of trout a year.

A slot limit is only about increasing the abundance of trophy trout in the river. A slot still lets the bait guys keep plenty - anyone who complains about a stringer of seven 15 1/2" trout won't be happy, no matter what. However, it also protects the fish that have shown the most potential to survive and grow, so that the trophy fishery is optimized.

Personally, I see it as the fairest way to give everyone what they want - people who want fish to eat can keep plenty for the table, and people who are only interested in a trophy get a better shot at one.

bd

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#838166 - 07/25/08 06:09 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
ewc
8 Point


Registered: 02/01/02
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Wow. So correct me if I'm wrong: You're stating that TWRA and TTU's Phil Bettoli are liars when it comes to the Clinch fishery?

Tell me exacly how you measure spawning sucess and recruitment?

Also why their conclusions are false. You could save the fishery and save fisherman valueable dollars by your methodology/biological assessment.

Thanks.

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#838206 - 07/25/08 06:42 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
ewc
8 Point


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That's a strong accusation againt Bettoli - a well-respected fisheries biologist.

As far as a few fry - that's meaningless in terms of a fishery. We stocked 5500 LMB fry in Norris and none were recruited to the fishery. TWRA stocks thousands of walleye fry each year in NR - any idea what their survival rate is?

If their conclusions are false and Bettoli is a fraud, how come we have not seen his removal and a TWRA appology / statement?

Quit pretending to be a fishery mgr/biolgist and go back to cutting your head off in pictures. You're much better at photography, Phil.


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#838236 - 07/25/08 06:58 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
stillinscrubs
4 Point


Registered: 08/16/07
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 Originally Posted By: captain hook

I love this forced upon me mentality. Guess the dang gov't shouldn't force us to not murder or steal as well.


The sad thing is that the majority of the people who maintain that mentality are being proped up by the tax payers because they can't take care of themselves (ie welfare)......

Same mentality in the housing projects of some big cities. Don't tell me what to do, I don't believe in laws, where's my fish (food stamps), you owe me....pick a reason.

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#838306 - 07/25/08 07:46 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: stillinscrubs]
onerarebreed
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Dang look where this discussion has gone.I leave for a few hours to fish put up butter beans and can 24qrts of tomates and this has turned into a full blown political discussion.Blowsm my mind.By the way is anyone catching any hybrid stripe near the dam.i have caught quiet a few lately but none that are legal.
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#838412 - 07/25/08 08:57 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
stillinscrubs
4 Point


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Didn't Betolli say that there was no spawning in the SH also? Or am I mistaken?
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#838552 - 07/25/08 10:26 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
stillinscrubs
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I sure wish the TWRA would post that admonission up somewhere (like the website)because saying it at a meeting that few people are at has much less impact....too many people are still going by that yahoos (Betolli's) BS. BW is one of the big BS eaters, right GL, CH, BD, and 7M?

SS

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#838596 - 07/25/08 11:09 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: stillinscrubs]
gil1
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I like Betolli, although I don't know him well. I had heard before I had met him that he said the SoHo had zero natural reproduction (obviously not true). I can't personally what he said.

I did hear him say that there is no natural reproduction on the Caney (I personally don't know for sure if that's true or not). What I got from him during a fin clipping and a couple of calls is that he is a very pessimistic guy.

Another very knowledgeable guy told me that Betolli doesn't want there to to be natural reproduction, and so he lets his personal desires get in the way of science. Sort of hard to believe. I mean, why would he do that?

Betolli (and TN Tech) carries a lot of weight as a scientist around the people I know. His studies have been accepted as valuable by TWRa in making decisions as far as I know. But the SoHo, Clinch, and Caney stories are unsettling to say the least.

Not trying to stir it up, but seriously, the fact that Tubs was allowed to be in the fisheries program there was unsettling. Did they teach him all that bogus stuff?

Okay, ranting late at night now, but just thinking out loud.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#839466 - 07/26/08 09:40 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: gil1]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
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What is the average size of the fish stocked in the Caney right now anyway?
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#839470 - 07/26/08 09:42 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
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Buying your fish at the super market, Not killing any one particular species becasue they are not meant for tablefare...?

I understand that everyone has different opinions on the matter but statements like that are what is wrong with the goverment and with regulations that are one minded and not thinking out of the box...selfish to your own beliefs and wanting and pushing your beliefs into regulations and laws...

My opinion is that ALL species native to any water are a valuable resource to that water. I feel that the regulations should be geared to allow those species to populate and grow to what could be concidered average sizes and populations. Pushing for millions of small eating size fish is wrong and pushing for millions of large trophy fish is wrong.

Yes, it may take a long time to grow a big fish...But that is my point...the big fish should be a surprise not an expectation.


I have yet to see or hear anything, from our maker or TWRA or any other wildlife and resource agency, that says any species is not meant to be tablefare or is only meant to be a trophy fish...

Smallmouth are great tablefare as are largemouths...they fry up just like any other fish...And a 2lb bluegill is a fine trophy to anyone or a 4 to 5lb Crappie...All species have the few fish that are exceptionable in size and weight...If you catch one legally you should have no hard feelings throwing it back, mounting it or frying it...

Difference is that I have no hard feeling to anyone who believes 100% Catch & Release and would not care at all if I fished right next to someone like that and would never EVER critisize them or how they fished or ever mention to them "throw it back! That would have fed 2 mouths"...But some of those that do believe in Catch & Release 100% also believe that all regulations and laws should be fit to their beliefs with out exception to those who do not share the same feelings...You want to talk passion and teaching kids "sport fishing"...go to a boat ramp after a large bass tournement has released their "catch" and see what happens to hundreds of bass that were "catch & release"...DEAD as a hammer! To me that is a waste...killed for a point or a dollar bill in a game of sport...No thank you! My children will learn to kill for a purpose and not to take too much from one area and to leave some for tomorrow...We take what we can use and not our maxed out legal limits just because the law says we can...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#839718 - 07/27/08 06:55 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
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 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Stalker I agree 100% on the bass tourney stuff. That is a waste, and the reason summer time tourney should be outlawed or a better way to measure fish for weigh in designed.


Glad we agree on something, I was getting worried for a minute... \:\)

 Originally Posted By: captain hook
On the other, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. We have completely different views, not that there is anything wrong with that, just the way it is. Take care and good luck.


Works for me...
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#841919 - 07/28/08 02:38 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: stillinscrubs]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: stillinscrubs
too many people are still going by that yahoos (Betolli's) BS. BW is one of the big BS eaters, right GL, CH, BD, and 7M?


This is the first I've heard about Betolli falsifying data for TWRA or losing a grant as a result. If it's true, it's an extremely serious charge. However, I'm very skeptical. First, falsifying data like that would almost certainly result in Betolli losing his job. However, Betolli's still on staff at TTU, and according to the Internet, he's still running the Tennessee Cooperative Fishery Research Unit with the USGS.

Second, it's a bizarre thing to falsify data for - how would he gain by hiding trout reproduction? Doesn't make any sense. Besides, since all of Betolli's research is done through Tenn. Tech, it seems like he'd have to have an awful lot of fisheries students "in" on the conspiracy to falsify the studies.

Third, where is the science "proving" brown trout reproduction in the Clinch and showing that the 2006 study was wrong? It doesn't seem to be published online. Does it actually exist?

If it's true, I'm sure someone will be able to provide some concrete proof. I bet a nickel nobody can.

As far as I know, TWRA's official line before the 2006 study was that they didn't have evidence of brown trout reproduction in the tailwaters, BUT the issue needed further study. The issue wasn't studied formally until 2006.

After the '06 study, TWRA stated that reproduction had been documented in the SoHo and the Watauga, but not the Clinch or Caney. This made a lot of people mad, and they bashed Betolli because his study didn't say what they wanted to hear. BUT I've still not seen anyone come forward with a 2" brown trout parr from the Caney.

By the way, Scrubs, since you're back and still bashing TWRA - how did all of your predictions about the brook trout turn out? Looks like they're doing pretty good to me. When are all the other trout in the river going to die of furunculosis like you predicted they would?

bd

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#841988 - 07/28/08 03:06 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 42314
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Anyone notice how scrubs and tubs rhyme? \:\)

I don't know jack about reproductive rates or lack thereof on the Caney. If there is any, I'm pretty sure it is insignificant. I guess the thing scrubs does not and never will realize is my opposition to size regulations doesn't have a single freakin thing to do with reproductive rates or trophy trout. It has nothing to do with flyfishing, bait fishing or explosives. It is not concerned with canoes, kayaks, jet skis or river guides.

It's more important than that. And if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#842059 - 07/28/08 03:37 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 21393
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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i will oppose c&r from p.o. to 61 bridge.
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#842239 - 07/28/08 05:25 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Never said Brown Trout spawned in the Clinch. The rainbows sure as heck used to, and in a big way until the mature sized fish were decimated by fishing pressure (bait slingers \:\) ).

I have been at several meetings where Jim Habera and Frank Fiss have given their new slide show which shows everything. Heck infoman was at one of the ones I went to last year.

It is well known through the TVA fisheries dept. and all over that Betolli's data was false, not whether he falsified it or not is pretty hard to say.


Betolli did a study all the way back in 1997, over 10 years ago, confirming that rainbows reproduce in the Clinch. I don't see anything, anywhere, where he said rainbows don't reproduce. The data showed that the fry were not surviving to catchable size well enough to support the fishery, but I haven't seen anything to refute that.

You basically called Betolli a fraud and a liar. Now you're saying it's "pretty hard to say" whether he falsified data or not. It smells like backpedaling to me.

You shouldn't make accusations like that if you're not able to back them up.

bd

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#842340 - 07/28/08 06:31 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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You said that Betolli used false data and said there was no trout reproduction on the Clinch. I assume you meant no rainbow trout reproduction.

So: Where did Betolli say there was no rainbow trout reproduction on the Clinch? Where did he present that data that you claim is false?

I see a 1997 study which says exactly what you're saying now, which is that there was some reproduction but poor recruitment to the fishery. That seems to totally contradict your claim that he was wrong about the trout.

If you're going to smear Betolli and call him a liar, you ought to back it up. Rather than accusing me of "twisting" stuff, can you post a link to Betolli's false data?

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/28/08 06:32 PM)

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#842416 - 07/28/08 07:15 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
ewc
8 Point


Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 2273
Loc: Knoxville

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BD-

You're aruing with a FIGJAM. He knows everything. He's got a w&f dgree, so he's got to be right.

Betolli would not falsify research. His student Frank Fiss would not either.

Betolli's accomplishments:

http://www2.tntech.edu/fish/bettoli.html

Captain Hook's accomplishments:

http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/villains/hook/hook.html

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#843068 - 07/29/08 08:40 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: captain hook

Go to the TWRA website and look under trout managemnt, find Norris, and the study is right there in front of your face.


CH, I've looked at the studies on the Clinch. What I'm saying is, I'm not seeing what you say is "right there in front of [my] face." Maybe I'm overlooking it. But I just don't see anything published by Betolli saying rainbow trout don't reproduce in the Clinch. To the contrary, I see Betolli recognizing over 10 years ago that rainbows DO reproduce in the Clinch, but not with enough recruitment to catchable sizes to support the fishery. To me, that's no different from what you have been saying.

 Quote:
It isn't just me, where is he now on the Clinch and Soho? Why did he suddenly lose his grant? Why did TWRA clearly state in the 2008-2012 report that they it had been falsley reported that pressure was not impacting the Clinch and there was no reproduction in the river? Why was it reported in 2006 that Betolli's creel survey stated that fishing pressure had not increased in a decade, when that was not the case as proven later?


Where is this 2008-2012 report you're talking about? I don't see any such study on TWRA's website. Could you link it for me? The most recent studies I see are the 02-06 Management Plan (by Habera et al.) and a 2005 creel survey (by Betolli). There's a solicitation for public comment online now for the 08 Management Plan, but that's not really a study. None of these say anything remotely like the things you claim are "clearly" stated about Betolli's data.

As far as Betolli "suddenly losing his grant," I don't see any evidence for that other than your word. I am skeptical. I noticed that the '02 MP was done by Habera et al, not Betolli, so I suspect that other folks with TWRA have been working on the Clinch for a long time and that the "sudden loss of grant" stuff is bunk. If you've got any evidence to prove me wrong, let me see it.

 Quote:
This is all in the reports, but why read when you can throw attacks at me.


I'd love to read all the stuff that you claim is out there, but I can't seem to find it. That's what is making me so skeptical.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/29/08 09:12 AM)

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#843457 - 07/29/08 01:24 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 21393
Loc: lenoir city,tn

Offline
i float the clinch often from p.o. to the bridge. i keep a few fish for the table and IF i catch one of the monster browns, it should be MY CHOICE whether to keep it or not. i paid for those fish just like everybody else and if i want to eat a few, i will.
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#843466 - 07/29/08 01:33 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: waterman]
Homebrewer
4 Point


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Smith County

Offline
no size limit
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#843773 - 07/29/08 05:03 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Tubakka
6 Point


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 782
Loc: Tennessee

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I skimmed over alot of these not out of apathy but simply because I do not have the time, but here is what I have always found interesting...

...I first put a line in the Caney in the fall of '06. I really had no idea what I was doing, but pooled my resources, did my homework, and learned from some good sources, but none of which took the place of sheer elbow grease and footwork. In that, I talked to lots nad lots of people, and all demographics of anglers that population the stereotypical tailrace trout river in their stereotypical manner were present in droves to draw upon. I still remember the first time I encountered a TU boy [no offense, but this wasn't even a good angler using fly tackle, as they do exist...he was just the Orvis poster boy, the angling equivalent of a mannequin]. He told me how rare those BIG browns were and how I'd probably NEVER get a keeper, let alone one 20"...they were SO rare, in fact, that HIS largest was 16" and that was a whopper! I bought into it, and then did some research...turns out tailraces, including the Caney, have proven themselves to produce some of the largest moving water trout on the planet, in fact...THE largest browns. So...why were they SO rare there? Turns out they weren't. As my awareness grew, personally, I began to treat these fish as I knew they existed, and began trageting them even before I was catching them. I slowly and surely began catching more and more "trophy" brown trout and seeing MANY MANY more much larger, and while my largest so far was 28", I have seen far bigger in that river, and multiples on days. I've even had a day where I caught 4 browns over 20" to about 24", and lost a whopper. A fish, a 20" brown trout, that was once told to me by some of the most outspoken members of the angling community [that tiny but rather loud demographic of poster boy fly anglers] turned out to be rather common.

It also turned out that once myself and several others had discovered this resource and began to take advantage of it within legal parameters, we had a target sign painted on us, how we were "meat hunters" and basically just all around terrible people for utilizing a resource to a greater degree than they were aware. So the henhouse stirred and the feathers flew...time passes.

I am further aware of fish in the river, trout, that can in fact, EAT the 20" browns that are considered trophies [how can you, again consider a trophy fish 20" when they can reach in this inparticular water in excess of 36-7" inches?]. So I get on here one day and find that an angler, utilizing the resources at hand, has found a patter to getting what is probably the top predator niche in the fishery, TARGETING those animals by playing off their instincts and habits to a great level of precision...large live bait. They had an awareness of these animals and only when they began to utilize that knowledge did we all become aware of them in our system. They were considered flukes. I say I bet there are more HUGE trout in that and other tailraces in the state than we can possibly imagine...just like in all our lakes and rivers otherwise, there are more trophies and records than we could ever know, but our knowledge limits us in becoming aware of them. Deep water tendencies and periods of inactivity both make t hem elusive to both angling and fisheries methods...though they do show up from time to time in both.

All this aside, I never do think that anglers as a whole will be able to truly dent the population of larger [25" +] trout in that river because they do not have the patience, time, skill, or knowledge combined to partake of that resource...as it takes all of those things in unison. We're not necessarily dealing with just ONE fishery...we're dealing with SEVERAL that have sequential runover into the other, but still...a 10" brown is NOT a 10 lb brown is NOT a 20-30-40 lb brown and will not be caught by the same angler suing the same methods. The beauty of these fish...they span such a breadth of size and predatory dominance. They are truly marvelous. Gil...dammit...catch and release? Sure...let the fishery collapse in on itself...wtih all those numbers, in ANY population of ANYTHING it happens EVERYTIME. Harvest isn't a BAD thing in a fishery DESIGNED for it.

That said, you're allowing people to have a say in the management of a river that aren't even actually targeting the fish they're trying to speak out about. For most [MOST] guys holding a flyrod to say they're targeting "trophy" browns and saying they should have a stake in their regs is like letting crappie fishermen dictate the size limit on muskellunge in a given lake. It's preposterous. It's more sense to let the striper guys drifting live rainbows and skippies to have their say as to the population of larger trout present and how it should be managed accordingly than some of these guys. That goes for most spin and bait fishermen as well...really the only guys who have any business talking about trophy browns, TRUE trophies are the few boys out there paying the time and price to get them, like that gentleman fishing with the live trout. He was TARGETING those fish, I can't say I've been out there TARGETING those fish. I'd had my fair share come up and even on the hook, but to say I was fishing for them would've meant I was fishing something too big for all those 15-20" trout to even fit in their mouth. 5" is too small. Even 8" I believe...10-14" and now you're talking a bait worthy of TARGETING a true trophy brown. Start fishing with bait that big consistently, and then tell me how many truly big fish ARE present in that river with the current regs? You'll be surprised that human ignorance is a better protector of a fishery than a regulation ever could be.

As for my drop in that hat, all that aside? Definite reg on bows...protected slot from 16-23", so the meat hunters can have their way, and the trophy fish can have a good shot to get outside the range of most anglers to live to a larger more desirable size. Browns?...1 fish between 20"-24" and another over 30"....two fish limit. Or heck...just forget these stupid brookies, all they're good for is bait, and stock MORE browns. They survive better and get larger and fatter in general in this particular fishery.

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#844942 - 07/30/08 09:34 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Tubakka]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Tubakka

...I first put a line in the Caney in the fall of '06. I really had no idea what I was doing, but pooled my resources, did my homework, and learned from some good sources, but none of which took the place of sheer elbow grease and footwork. In that, I talked to lots nad lots of people, and all demographics of anglers that population the stereotypical tailrace trout river in their stereotypical manner were present in droves to draw upon. I still remember the first time I encountered a TU boy [no offense, but this wasn't even a good angler using fly tackle, as they do exist...he was just the Orvis poster boy, the angling equivalent of a mannequin]. He told me how rare those BIG browns were and how I'd probably NEVER get a keeper, let alone one 20"...they were SO rare, in fact, that HIS largest was 16" and that was a whopper! I bought into it, and then did some research...turns out tailraces, including the Caney, have proven themselves to produce some of the largest moving water trout on the planet, in fact...THE largest browns. So...why were they SO rare there? Turns out they weren't. As my awareness grew, personally, I began to treat these fish as I knew they existed, and began trageting them even before I was catching them. I slowly and surely began catching more and more "trophy" brown trout and seeing MANY MANY more much larger, and while my largest so far was 28", I have seen far bigger in that river, and multiples on days. I've even had a day where I caught 4 browns over 20" to about 24", and lost a whopper. A fish, a 20" brown trout, that was once told to me by some of the most outspoken members of the angling community [that tiny but rather loud demographic of poster boy fly anglers] turned out to be rather common.


Executive summary for the time-impaired:

"I started fishing the Caney in 2006, and someone told me the easiest way to catch big browns is with a jerkbait. I used a jerkbait and caught some. Now I think I am Buck Perry of the Caney Fork, educating the ignorant masses about trout that nobody knows of but me.

Insert gratiuitous bash of Trout Unlimited here."

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/30/08 09:36 AM)

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#844961 - 07/30/08 09:45 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: B.D.]
bob
4 Point


Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 116
Loc: tn

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Itís funny how those folks who have never contributed a G D thing to a fishery, other then remove fish from it, bash an organization that does tons for that very fishery...



Edited by bob (07/30/08 09:51 AM)

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#845086 - 07/30/08 11:10 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: waterman]
Unicam Administrator
Grumpaw
16 Point


Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 19468
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN

Offline
Lemme add a couple things to this one. First its sheer ignorance as to any other scenarios but visual. I have fished some of the best trout waters in the country, and some of the better stocked lakes in California, Nevada, New Mexico and Colorado.

NM river was zoned for top six miles as trophy only, 1 fish limit over 20 inches and barbless hooks with lures or flies only, below the 6 mile stretch it was any legal bait no size limit. Have to say, the trophy and non-trophy sections of the river were both extremely busy even to the point of over crowded.

CA. The rules on this river were ridiculous and in a weeks time with a broken down helicopter on the side of that river I saw one other angler angler, I caught a bunch of fish but nothing to write home about. River was at the base of Montgomery pass in Bishop CA. Suppposedly a "Blue Ribbon" trout water.

CA. Pay Lakes, The lakes are fished hard but plenty of big fish many over 5 lbs, my biggest was a bow/hybrid that was 17 lbs, think the state record for a bow/hybrid was 23? mayby more cant remember. No size or slot limit on any of the pay to play lakes.

Colorado was awesome, never fished a trophy water but had a blast with goldens, rainbows, etc...nothing big but plenty to eat!


There are alot better trout waters in the country, many have been ruined by slot limits or silly rules, it turns people away when they have to worry about rules. You input to many rules and people will leave, the fishery foes down hill and everyone looses.

The Caney has been an awesome river for me, I have been going there since 98 and loving every minute of it. Played catch and release, fill the creel, flies, lures, bait, depends on the mood. Caught plenty of large trout in there as well. They are there and catchable, even more so if you fish the conditions of the river and the weather. To each their own on a public waterway, beware what you ask for, sometimes you get it! You push out the "bait slingers" to slot limits and over regulating you just might loose the $$ that affords the stocking program and what it was designed for in the first place.
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#845228 - 07/30/08 12:28 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 42314
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Moderation Tribeless, all things in moderation. \:\) On a forum upon which how to crap in a boat ranks at the top, what do you expect, common sense?
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#845646 - 07/30/08 05:04 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5133
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

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TWRA has already put enough size limits on lakes/rivers that don't need them.

Pickwick comes to mind.

If it's beneficial and there is evidence it needs it then heck yeah but not because some big boss or commissioner wants it.
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#845927 - 07/30/08 07:50 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Unicam Administrator
Grumpaw
16 Point


Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 19468
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook
 Originally Posted By: Unicam



There are alot better trout waters in the country, many have been ruined by slot limits or silly rules, it turns people away when they have to worry about rules. You input to many rules and people will leave, the fishery foes down hill and everyone looses.



This is completely false! Try whole communities based solely on a the river---> Big Horn River and Fort Smith Montana, Henry's Fork River, Last Chance Idaho, San Juan River Durango Colorado, and Deschutes River, Maupin, Oregon.

There are tons of rivers nationwide which are destination rivers based solely on the quality of fishing which is world class based on the regulations. Green River, Frying Pan, Missouri, Madison, South Fork of the Snake, Au Sable, Delaware, South Holston, Watauga, White, Little Red, the list could go on and on.

Your above statement is utterly false, and has no merit.


Read the whole post there Capt. Hook before you start slinging mud. I will agree there are some good and most of the rivers you named are fisheries for the rich and famous, not the every day angler wanting to have some fun with the familt, toss some bait and enjoy some fish on the barbie. You miss the point, or maybe make it for me.
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John 15:13

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#846445 - 07/31/08 07:19 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Unicam]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
Unicam, I've got to disagree with your suggestion that regulations make fisheries go downhill. Your examples of western streams prove your claim false. In most of these states, the "blue ribbon" trout streams are catch and release only and/or heavily regulated. The regs haven't made the fisheries go downhill - to the contrary, the regs have made these streams some of the best trout fisheries in the country, despite very heavy fishing pressure.

Comparing these streams with the California pay lakes is just silly. The pay lakes raise triploid fish in hatcheries up to 10 lbs or more, dump them into a little muddy pond, and feed them pellets every day until they get caught. That's no accomplishment. A lot of the pay lakes don't even support trout year-round: they dump the big hatchery trout in the winter, and switch to catfish when it's warm. It's like "high-fence" hunting a pen-raised elk in someone's 10-acre yard.

bd



Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/31/08 08:42 AM)

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#846669 - 07/31/08 09:07 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Brian, you and I have diagreed in this thread but I 100% agree with you on your above post.


No worries - I disagree with EVERYBODY sooner or later. I'm a "professional arguer." \:\)

Since this has been a topic with a bit of controversy and a few strong words, this might be a good time to note that I mean no hard feelings against anyone here, "vigorous debate" notwithstanding.

I do appreciate everyone's opinions on this subject very much.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/31/08 09:07 AM)

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#846719 - 07/31/08 09:39 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Fordman
12 Point


Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 5871
Loc: Rockvale,tn

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I will say that I agree with about half of this thread. Slot limits are something I would love to see happen, I donít see it in the future though. Sorry I have dealt with the TWRA for years and it will take three studies and 4 years for anyone to make a choice.
One thing thoughÖ Is this thread about fish or the fact the river has become crowded? I would think that the crowded river has been the driving force on all the talk about the CF. There is a lot of water on that river and if you canít deal with the crowds there is even more water all over the state. The crowds will not hurt the river period. Now does there need to be some kind of regulations governing the amount of rental craft on the river at any given time? I think thatís a good idea. I am a fishing guide and have no problems with outfitters, guides and any commercial operation being governed and regulated for the safety and good of a resource. You guys would come a lot closer to getting that done than you ever will slot limits.
As far as fishing regulations I would much rather see a closed season on BROWN TROUT from 01 OCT through thanksgiving. That would probably benefit the river as much if not more than a slot limit. There is more pressure on the river and my only concern is that when the really big fish move onto the gravel to spawn that there will be a wholesale slaughter. Now these big females are very hard to catch but are VERY easy to foul hook or snag with jerk bait.

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#847080 - 07/31/08 12:49 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
Fordman
12 Point


Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 5871
Loc: Rockvale,tn

Offline
Well I have fished with a fly rod from Colorado to a good portion of the eastern seaboard and crowds dont ruin fishing. I learned that I didnt like crowds so I learned to fish for something besides trout. I am by no means a fly fishing expert but seems to me if you cant or wont fish the CF because of a crowd you have a couple options. First you can stop fishing. Second you can try your hand at largemouth,smallmouth,spotted bass, stripers,hybrids,carp,gar,skipjack,shellcrackers,bluegill, crappie,white bass, black perch,or catfish. ALl the species live in the SAME WATERSHED as the CF.
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#848486 - 08/01/08 08:39 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Fordman]
Tubakka
6 Point


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 782
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
I'd like to make a note....I imagine that the "snagging" trout remark was pointed in my general direction...

...you'll notice that the pictures I would post on these boards and others during the fall, the "spawn" if you will [about a productive as Bob Dole trying to procreate at this stage in the game] were narry above 22". Sure, I saw tons of huge fish, and know I placed my bait in front of at least one that was pushign the 15+ lb mark. I know that. I put it right in front of her face. The only way these fish snag themselves is if they strike at it and then get caught subsequently. most of the fish I'd hooked on jerkbaits were on the side of the head, or even a middle treble on the back with the hook in the front...but that's the nature of the jerkbait. A 5" lure hit by a 20-25" fish is still a big mouthful. The ones that were released were handled as well as we could and I'm sure made it just fine, as we kept fight time and operating time minimal. Believe me, if I had been "snagging" those fish, I would've had a 10 pound plus trout everytime out. And once again, I stand...those fish aren't hard to catch...IF you know how to target them. I don't know how to specifically go after them yet, but I know the areas they lurk, and I know t here are goes who DO nkow...i.e. big...live...bait.


Once again, if you're just a guy out there tossing dry flies NEVER under generation, let alone 2-3 heavy flow, you have absolutely NO say in the management of trophy fish in that system...because you aren't even targeting them. You're not fishing them. Period. It's like crappie fishermen trying to put input on how to manage muskies. Two different ball games....same fish, yes, but two different animals. NOt saying a big trout isn't occasionally taken on a small small fly, but just the nature of large predators such as a trophy brown cannot afford them to expend energy picking off little molecules on the waterse surface here or there when t hey live on a 5000 cfs treadmill. They have to eat big prey to even maintain their body weight.

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#848504 - 08/01/08 08:49 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Tubakka]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 42314
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Hmmm. In a way, in theory I might agree with some of Tubs statment. But in fact, if that fisherman, whatever equipment he uses and whenever he fishes buys a license/trout stamp, then he dam sure has a say as far as I am concerned.

The hunter who never kills a buck over 18 months old has just as much say in deer management as the guy who won't shoot one under 4.5 yrs.

I agree flinging flies on no flow in the dead of summer is not the best way to catch trout over 8#. But what does that have to do with a say in how that fishery is managed? It would be like saying a guy can't park his truck and float his boat in the winter unless he is throwing jerkbaits.
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#848698 - 08/01/08 11:00 AM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: Tubakka]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: Tubakka

Once again, if you're just a guy out there tossing dry flies NEVER under generation, let alone 2-3 heavy flow, you have absolutely NO say in the management of trophy fish in that system...because you aren't even targeting them.


In that case, I do not want to hear one single word more from you about the brookies, because you "aren't even targeting them."

Seriously, Tubs. This is just flat ignorant. Doesn't it seem a little inconsistent when you bash fly fishermen as "elitist snobs" and then go around claiming that you should have more say than them in fisheries management because you somehow have some superior right to the trophy fish?

First, even the hardcore fly fishermen on the Caney aren't throwing dry flies all the time, because there are very few good dry fly opportunities here. This shows how little you know about fly fishing.

Second, I have caught browns up to 28" on a #16 nymph. It ain't easy, and it ain't the best way to target them, even with a fly, but there are times when it can be done.

I've got an idea: maybe people should have absolutely NO say when talking about things they don't have a clue about.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (08/01/08 11:09 AM)

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#848868 - 08/01/08 12:54 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10828
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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I have sampled the stomachs of a few browns over 4 pounds and I promise you there were not any bugs in there. Actually all of them had shad over 7 inches in them. Im not saying they dont eat bugs, but 40% I dont think so. Where is your reference on that? And you cant say you have used a turkey baster to suck them out because I dont think one of those things could suck out a 8 or 9 inch shad. \:\)
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#849339 - 08/01/08 06:52 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10828
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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I dont make decisions on heresay. If I see data to back it up I will resend and admit that I was wrong.
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#849524 - 08/01/08 09:12 PM Re: I'm taking a poll on Caney Size Regs [Re: ]
trealtree
16 Point


Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 10828
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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I didnt make the claim. So there is no reason for me to do research to back up your claim.
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