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#805914 - 07/02/08 03:24 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: Hawk]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hawk
Just read about a new areation gate being installed at the Center Hill dam and wonder if that could have caused the siltation when they opened the gate?


It's my understanding that the sluice gate won't be installed until July 8, so it would not have anything to do with the silt last Sunday. Besides, the silt was entering the river from a drainage gutter immediately adjacent to the boat ramp. It was nowhere near the sluice gates.

And to address the points about the brookies that have been raised:

I agree with Gil 100 percent about the brookies. To be completely honest, before they went in, I thought they wouldn't do well. I figured most would be gone in a few months, and the ones that remained would be restricted to the first mile or two below the ramp.

I was wrong.

The brookies are very healthy, they are doing well, and I have caught them as far down as the Kirby Road access. Maybe they aren't as big as the browns and rainbows, but they bring something unique to the river, and I'm glad they are there.

As far as competition for food, that doesn't concern me right now. Caney trout have a growth rate that is just phenomenal - if forage base was an issue, they wouldn't grow so fast. Besides, the forage base should get even better once the sluice establishes a minimum flow (which in turn will increase the bug life in the river). When growth rate slows down or we start catching skinny trout, it will be time to worry about competition - also time to back off on the number of stockers.

bd

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#806068 - 07/02/08 05:04 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
stik
TnDeer Old Timer
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 20349
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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the brookies are also doing very well in the clinch. the new state record brookie will come from the clinch or caney within the next 5 years. and i LOVE em!
_________________________
experienced hunters know its not just a bushy white tail, its a big middle finger.

nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught


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#806118 - 07/02/08 06:06 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: stik]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6319
Loc: Nashville, TN

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I don't know how much we can hope for, but there's always a chance that with a little help, there could be sustainable reproduction on the Caney. That would be awesome and a whole new ballgame for regulations.

If you could only find the moonshine...
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#806188 - 07/02/08 07:12 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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It looks like the major factors identified by studies* that affect reproduction on the Caney are:

1. Scouring of the redds and depth fluctuation during generation periods.

2. Temperature (ideal spawn temp for browns is around 47F, but the Caney is often in the mid 50s in October/November).

3. Large numbers of people harassing the spawners and walking all over the redds.

Number 2 gives me the most hope right now - the water output from the sluice gates seems to be colder than output from generation. Will the new sluice gate and constant flow push temps down enough? I don't know, but I'm eager to see.

As far as scouring and fluctuation, I don't see the Corps being convinced to change the schedule to allow trout to spawn. However, with them in "water conservation" mode now due to the repair drawdown, maybe we'll be lucky enough to get a light schedule with mostly "sluice only" flows in the fall. The big catch is you also need a light schedule later in the winter when the eggs hatch, lest the alevins all get washed away. I don't know how likely that is.

As far as people leaving trout alone and not tromping all over the redds, there's nothing that can be done about that. All we could hope for is that the few sheltered redds away from access points might be spared.



*In addition to the factors cited in the studies, I also wonder about impact from hordes of stockers devouring eggs and alevins. I have no scientific way to quantify the impact of that, but I know that the redds dug in November are crowded with feeding rainbows in late December.

bd

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#806476 - 07/02/08 10:33 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

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Just a few side notes as I was on the Clinch fishing today and couldn't keep up \:D

The brookies are doing fine, still ugly river chicken brookies, but getting bigger. Still don't like them, remember this is coming from a guy who loves carp. So take it for what it is worth.

Despite what Frank Fiss and his merry men say there is heavy spawning on the Clinch every year. Even taking him to redds he still denies it, which is fine.

The CLinch unlike the Caney is a put, grow, and take fishery. Fish are stocked primarily as 3" fingerlings and then grow up as close to wild as possible. Sure we have some nasty stockers mixed in, but most rainbows look no different then a river born rainbow from the Left Coast (fished it, so I know).

I am tickled that you all are getting the Clinch crowd, because it has been unusually quiet this year, and keep on believing that it is in a down cycle. Fine with me.

BTW Gil if you weren't scared \:D you could come see what it is like first hand, anytime you want to come I wil happily but you right in the middle of them.

Some people like Coors, other like Budweiser. No different then trout, I like the speed of a rainbow and the muted silvers our larger clinch fish sport with a deep red stripe. Just like women, some like fat ones others like skinny ones. Nothing wrong with people having things they like and dislike.
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#806513 - 07/02/08 11:10 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: captain hook]
Crosshairy
10 Point


Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2583
Loc: Bartlett, TN

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what are redds?

(coming from an ignorant, west tennesseean who's surrounded by muddy, slow, hot water)
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I'm hungry and tired. Don't poke my belly.

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#806549 - 07/02/08 11:45 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: Crosshairy]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6319
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Redds are trout's equivalent of bass beds. It's usually an oval indention in gravel that's lighter than the surrounding gravel where the trout lays its eggs.

Having trout redds in the river doesn't necessarily mean anything, though, as most rivers that have zero spawning still have a "false" spawning run and redds all over the place.

Although there is probably not much successful spawning going on in the Caney, there is plenty of evidence that the fish are giving it their best shot but mostly unsuccessfully. Eggs can't hatch when several generators turn on and they are washed away.

Heavy wading traffic on a river can destroy redds, so some sections of rivers are often closed to wading during spawning time. For instance, a couple of brown trout spawning areas on the South Holston River in ETN are closed from Nov. - Jan. to protect spawning habitat.

Trout usually won't leave the nest while spawning, so some folks have been known to try to snag (foul-hook) fish off their nest. Even if legal, these folks should have to kiss Rosie O'Donnell on the mouth.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#806561 - 07/02/08 11:56 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
Crosshairy
10 Point


Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2583
Loc: Bartlett, TN

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eww harsh sentence ;\)
_________________________
I'm hungry and tired. Don't poke my belly.

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#807542 - 07/03/08 07:06 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: Crosshairy]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6319
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Got this email from Bob Sneed today...


Gil & Jon:

You guys had each e-mailed me about silt entering the Caney Fork River a
short distance downstream of Center Hill Dam over this past weekend. Based
on inspections by our construction folks it appears that the source of the
sediment was ongoing construction activity related to the seepage project;
however, identifying the direct source is not as clear-cut as you would
expect it to be. We looked back at Doppler rainfall data on our system and
saw where the construction site was hit by a short duration, high intensity
storm on Saturday. As a result of this event we have directed that
additional erosion control measures be implemented. Currently, this is a
very dynamic work site with respect to excavation and fill activities taking
place in close proximity to each other. The erosion control measures will
continue to be monitored and revised as necessary. Thanks again for alerting
us to this situation. If you observe any future sediment releases please let
me know and I will alert our construction office.

Bob
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#810760 - 07/07/08 05:37 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
snaildarter
4 Point


Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 144
Loc: Knoxville, TN

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I'm not sure who Mr. Sneed works for, but TDEC should be notified of this sediment release. The work I do is directly related to sediment and erosion control and that type of release usually is cause for a fine or at the minimum a notice of violation (N.O.V.) from TDEC (especially when it can be directly related to a construction site). Whoever has the photos I would pass them along to the Cookeville TDEC EFO with a time and date. I have a contact there, but I'll have to look his name up at work today. Just so everyone knows you can also report these type releases to the EPA, they are required to follow up on these types releases. Also the erosion and sediment controls on construction sites with over one acre of disturbed soils are "supposed" to be designed for a 2 year / 24 hours storm event. I would like to know how much rain fell and over how many hours. There are also many other regulations that come along with having over 1 acre of disturbed soil, such as having to have a storm water pollution prevention plan (swppp) and performing bi-weekly inspections of the erosion and pollution prevention measures on site.

But, I have a feeling since this project is dam safety related and is probably being overseen by the USACE nothing will come of any reports to other regulatory agencies.

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