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#802790 - 06/30/08 01:38 PM Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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Yesterday morning there was a HUGE silt plume in the upper river, coming in by the ramp near the dam on river left. It extended downriver for over a mile, nearly all the way to "big rock." It appeared to be runoff from the grouting work being done up above. We got a little rain overnight, but not that much. I am worried what the Caney would look like after a real downpour. Can't be good for the trout.

The 11:00 a.m. generation pulse cleared it out, since we didn't get any more rain after 7:00 a.m. or so.

The huge volume of silt makes me suspect that there is a breach in a silt fence somewhere, or maybe an inadequately-fenced spot. This is a view of the river at the head of the silt plume - the silt is entering the water from a cement drainage culvert on the downstream side of the ramp.



If there's a breached silt fence, I'd like to send an e-mail to somebody to see if it can be fixed before we get a day of heavy rain and blow out the whole river. Anybody know who should get the heads-up? TDEC? Bob Snead and/or the Corps? Someone else? If anyone has any contacts on this, PM me and I'll follow up.

bd



Edited by Brian Dunigan (06/30/08 01:38 PM)

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#802834 - 06/30/08 02:20 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
rsimms
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I don't know which office handles that area, but it would be a TDEC issue... Division of Water Pollution Control I believe. I suspect the state might be limited in it's influence of a federal project, but I'm sure any kind of "buzz" in the hornet's nest might help. Especially since you have photographic evidence. That breaks my heart to see the Caney run brown.
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#803207 - 06/30/08 08:32 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: rsimms]
mike243
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the clinch runs brown whenever theres heavy rain from some of the creeks that feed it,i would think its a natural event to a certain degree,i reckon somebody somewhere takes samples,found a log puller leaking hydro fluid into a creek on bowwater property,called it in & a week later it was still leaking into the creek,reckon they were out taking samples of how much dirt was washing toward the gulf \:\) mike243
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#803299 - 06/30/08 09:19 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: mike243]
smstone22
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Registered: 01/11/04
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Not good at all for the trout.
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#803324 - 06/30/08 09:28 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: smstone22]
mike243
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Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 11242
Loc: east tn

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 Originally Posted By: steven stone
Not good at all for the trout.

thats true for all the fish the saving part for the rivers below the dams are the generators,when they kick on it helps clear it up faster than a river with no other water increase,i dont know how many ppm. it takes to affect the fish for what length of time but it does make ya wonder when you see it all brown.i havent seen of any mass dieoffs due to muddy waters but i do know it happens,mike243
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#803434 - 06/30/08 10:08 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: mike243]
gil1
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6318
Loc: Nashville, TN

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I will send this link to Bob Sneed.

Edited by gil1 (06/30/08 10:09 PM)
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#803650 - 07/01/08 06:08 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
captain hook
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Silt is not a major issue in any of our tailwaters, if anything they could use a little. 2 generators does an awfully good job of cleaning out the system on a daily basis.

The Clinch will turn black after heavy rains from all the mud as will every other river in this state if it rains enough. No big deal and just part of run off.

Now if it is a problem with a silt fence then there is an issue.
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#803933 - 07/01/08 09:20 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
gil1
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6318
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: gil1
I will send this link to Bob Sneed.


Got this reply from Bob...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sneed, Robert B LRN" <Robert.B.Sneed@usace.army.mil>
To: "Gil Lackey" <gillackey@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Silt Problem on Caney


Gil:

Thanks for sending the link. Frank Fiss had sent me a message on this
yesterday and I have asked our Construction folks to check it out. I'll pass
along info when I know more.

Bob
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#804047 - 07/01/08 10:27 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
bowriter
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My memory, faulty as it is, tells me this is not the first time this has happened. I seem to recall a couple other incidents of this. As Hook said, this is not all bad if it is not a regular occurence or a fault somewhere along the line.

The single best day I ever had fishing the Caney-both for size and number-was a day the water was almost muddy from siltation runoff. I believe we had 11 trout over 5 pounds. But that is neither here, nor there if this is siltration fence problem.
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#804171 - 07/01/08 11:42 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: bowriter]
B.D.
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Registered: 03/24/08
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A little silt might not do that much harm, though I'd disagree that the tailwaters "could use a little." As a general rule, the less silt, the better. The silt plume Sunday morning was so dense, and for such a long distance, that it was definitely a bad thing.

The brook trout in particular have a very low tolerance for heavy silt. It doesn't make any sense to dump 20,000 of them in and then kill them with mud.

bd

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#804173 - 07/01/08 11:43 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
B.D.
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Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: gil1
Got this reply from Bob...


Thanks a ton for forwarding the link, Gil. Let me know if you hear anything.

bd

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#804226 - 07/01/08 12:08 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
captain hook
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It doesn't make sense to dump brook trout in period, nevermind silt or no silt.

If they weren't free to the state I would be raising mortal heck about them being introduced.
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#804255 - 07/01/08 12:21 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: captain hook]
gil1
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Registered: 04/06/07
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 Originally Posted By: captain hook
It doesn't make sense to dump brook trout in period, nevermind silt or no silt.

If they weren't free to the state I would be raising mortal heck about them being introduced.


Just a quick hijack and then back to the subject, but I wasn't around when this was discussed before. I can't think of a single downside to stocking brookies. If they do well (and they have so far), what is the problem? Am I missing something? What makes them less than a brown or rainbow in your mind? Not getting in your face, but I love 'em.
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It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

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#804393 - 07/01/08 02:13 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
shorefisherman
6 Point


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I think the brooks are great, catch(release) them almost every time i go, super aggressive fish attacking the plugs i use (and gill u know the size). But silt or not these brooks were corn fed, way more hardier than the natives up in the smokies...I wouldnt be suprised if someone catches a 2-3 pounder in couple years! I think they have a way better chance in the caney than any other tailwaters in tn.

Edited by shorefisherman (07/01/08 02:20 PM)
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#805057 - 07/01/08 10:45 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: shorefisherman]
bowriter
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I hope the brookies survive. They are superb eating. \:\)
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#805104 - 07/01/08 11:40 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
7mm08
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Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 4753
Loc: In a river hopefully!

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Hopefully they didn't clean the generators with chlorine like they did once on the Clinch!!! Good ole TVA!!
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#805187 - 07/02/08 06:11 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: 7mm08]
captain hook
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I am just not a huge worshipper of the Brook Trout. They won't last around here as they are incredibly stupid and most I see these days are keeping their 7 fish limit of 8" brook trout.

Sure they can get big, but my question is what's the point with stocking them? More competition for food is the big thing. And ofr you Caney disciples, what makes you think the Caney is far superior to the Clinch, in terms of fish growing ability? You all must not have fished the CLinch back during the quality zone years.
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#805223 - 07/02/08 06:56 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
Hawk
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 09/03/99
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Just read about a new areation gate being installed at the Center Hill dam and wonder if that could have caused the siltation when they opened the gate?

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...ce=nletter-news
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#805432 - 07/02/08 09:37 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: captain hook]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6318
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: captain hook
I am just not a huge worshipper of the Brook Trout. They won't last around here as they are incredibly stupid and most I see these days are keeping their 7 fish limit of 8" brook trout.

Sure they can get big, but my question is what's the point with stocking them? More competition for food is the big thing. And ofr you Caney disciples, what makes you think the Caney is far superior to the Clinch, in terms of fish growing ability? You all must not have fished the CLinch back during the quality zone years.


What's the point of stocking rainbows? They don't grow as big as browns and they compete with browns for food, and I don't like it. Just trying to make a ridiculous point about trout equality. They are all just stockers tossed in a ditch for people to "unstock" them.

I can't think of a good reason why you would like brookies less than rainbows or browns. The brookies are just generally feistier, easier to catch, and prettier, all reasons why I like them. They are all about the same to me, but since I'm not used to catching them, it's a little like adding salt to an already good meal.

I am not a Caney disciple - I just live closer to the Caney than the Clinch. According to even the E TN folks who are bypassing the Clinch to travel down to fish the Caney, the Caney has been fishing much better than the Clinch (bigger and more fish). I would imagine that right now, the Caney does grow fish better than the Clinch. The formula is always water quality and harvest.

2 years ago, that was not the case. And I'm guessing that 2 years from now, the holdover Caney fish will mostly have been killed by overharvesting, the Clinch will have overcome it's issues, and the tides will have reversed again.

From reports on both rivers, it's my opinion that that reversal is happening as we speak. The Caney is getting depleted and the Clinch is bouncing back. It seems to be cyclical like that.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#805525 - 07/02/08 10:37 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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The Caney, as it always has been, is cyclical. Right now it is on an upswing. There is one school of thought that believes the next state record brown will comeout of the Caney this year or early next year. Probably it will be caught on live bait. It will still be a state record. I predcit next Dec-Feb is going to blow your mind in terms of big trout caught.

Now. How much has fishing pressure depleted the fish population? In my opinion, not much. I could go into a very long, multi-sylabic explanation but I won't. Suffice it to say, once a trout gets past The Smith, he is virtually home free in terms of fishing pressure. And thousands of them do get that far. The catch and eat guys and the natural predation (rockfish and big trout) take their toll. But it is a sustainable toll.

The major threat to longevity on the Caney, as it has always been, is the water and the food source. If that needs explaning, I'll let Gil do it. I do think the construction (blasting) at the dam will have an affect. I don't yet know if it will be positive or negative. Only time will tell.

In the meantime, and in terms of cutting to the chase, as Gil once so logically put it, "...the Caney is just a big ditch we stock with fish to catch." Or something along those lines. And to some extent, that is true. But it is more than that. Too many people fail to consider that fish are being caught that could not possibly have started as hatchery fish.......and what the Caney empties into....and is emptied into.

There is far more to this 26 miles stretch of river than you might suspect. For example, there is a cache of 26 cases of moonshine quart jars that has been there since prohibition. Pretty good shine, too.
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#805914 - 07/02/08 03:24 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: Hawk]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hawk
Just read about a new areation gate being installed at the Center Hill dam and wonder if that could have caused the siltation when they opened the gate?


It's my understanding that the sluice gate won't be installed until July 8, so it would not have anything to do with the silt last Sunday. Besides, the silt was entering the river from a drainage gutter immediately adjacent to the boat ramp. It was nowhere near the sluice gates.

And to address the points about the brookies that have been raised:

I agree with Gil 100 percent about the brookies. To be completely honest, before they went in, I thought they wouldn't do well. I figured most would be gone in a few months, and the ones that remained would be restricted to the first mile or two below the ramp.

I was wrong.

The brookies are very healthy, they are doing well, and I have caught them as far down as the Kirby Road access. Maybe they aren't as big as the browns and rainbows, but they bring something unique to the river, and I'm glad they are there.

As far as competition for food, that doesn't concern me right now. Caney trout have a growth rate that is just phenomenal - if forage base was an issue, they wouldn't grow so fast. Besides, the forage base should get even better once the sluice establishes a minimum flow (which in turn will increase the bug life in the river). When growth rate slows down or we start catching skinny trout, it will be time to worry about competition - also time to back off on the number of stockers.

bd

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#806068 - 07/02/08 05:04 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
stik
TnDeer Old Timer
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 20319
Loc: lenoir city,tn

confused Online
the brookies are also doing very well in the clinch. the new state record brookie will come from the clinch or caney within the next 5 years. and i LOVE em!
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#806118 - 07/02/08 06:06 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: stik]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6318
Loc: Nashville, TN

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I don't know how much we can hope for, but there's always a chance that with a little help, there could be sustainable reproduction on the Caney. That would be awesome and a whole new ballgame for regulations.

If you could only find the moonshine...
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#806188 - 07/02/08 07:12 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
B.D.
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Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
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It looks like the major factors identified by studies* that affect reproduction on the Caney are:

1. Scouring of the redds and depth fluctuation during generation periods.

2. Temperature (ideal spawn temp for browns is around 47F, but the Caney is often in the mid 50s in October/November).

3. Large numbers of people harassing the spawners and walking all over the redds.

Number 2 gives me the most hope right now - the water output from the sluice gates seems to be colder than output from generation. Will the new sluice gate and constant flow push temps down enough? I don't know, but I'm eager to see.

As far as scouring and fluctuation, I don't see the Corps being convinced to change the schedule to allow trout to spawn. However, with them in "water conservation" mode now due to the repair drawdown, maybe we'll be lucky enough to get a light schedule with mostly "sluice only" flows in the fall. The big catch is you also need a light schedule later in the winter when the eggs hatch, lest the alevins all get washed away. I don't know how likely that is.

As far as people leaving trout alone and not tromping all over the redds, there's nothing that can be done about that. All we could hope for is that the few sheltered redds away from access points might be spared.



*In addition to the factors cited in the studies, I also wonder about impact from hordes of stockers devouring eggs and alevins. I have no scientific way to quantify the impact of that, but I know that the redds dug in November are crowded with feeding rainbows in late December.

bd

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#806476 - 07/02/08 10:33 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

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Just a few side notes as I was on the Clinch fishing today and couldn't keep up \:D

The brookies are doing fine, still ugly river chicken brookies, but getting bigger. Still don't like them, remember this is coming from a guy who loves carp. So take it for what it is worth.

Despite what Frank Fiss and his merry men say there is heavy spawning on the Clinch every year. Even taking him to redds he still denies it, which is fine.

The CLinch unlike the Caney is a put, grow, and take fishery. Fish are stocked primarily as 3" fingerlings and then grow up as close to wild as possible. Sure we have some nasty stockers mixed in, but most rainbows look no different then a river born rainbow from the Left Coast (fished it, so I know).

I am tickled that you all are getting the Clinch crowd, because it has been unusually quiet this year, and keep on believing that it is in a down cycle. Fine with me.

BTW Gil if you weren't scared \:D you could come see what it is like first hand, anytime you want to come I wil happily but you right in the middle of them.

Some people like Coors, other like Budweiser. No different then trout, I like the speed of a rainbow and the muted silvers our larger clinch fish sport with a deep red stripe. Just like women, some like fat ones others like skinny ones. Nothing wrong with people having things they like and dislike.
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#806513 - 07/02/08 11:10 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: captain hook]
Crosshairy
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Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2570
Loc: Bartlett, TN

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what are redds?

(coming from an ignorant, west tennesseean who's surrounded by muddy, slow, hot water)
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#806549 - 07/02/08 11:45 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: Crosshairy]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6318
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Redds are trout's equivalent of bass beds. It's usually an oval indention in gravel that's lighter than the surrounding gravel where the trout lays its eggs.

Having trout redds in the river doesn't necessarily mean anything, though, as most rivers that have zero spawning still have a "false" spawning run and redds all over the place.

Although there is probably not much successful spawning going on in the Caney, there is plenty of evidence that the fish are giving it their best shot but mostly unsuccessfully. Eggs can't hatch when several generators turn on and they are washed away.

Heavy wading traffic on a river can destroy redds, so some sections of rivers are often closed to wading during spawning time. For instance, a couple of brown trout spawning areas on the South Holston River in ETN are closed from Nov. - Jan. to protect spawning habitat.

Trout usually won't leave the nest while spawning, so some folks have been known to try to snag (foul-hook) fish off their nest. Even if legal, these folks should have to kiss Rosie O'Donnell on the mouth.
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#806561 - 07/02/08 11:56 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: gil1]
Crosshairy
10 Point


Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2570
Loc: Bartlett, TN

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eww harsh sentence ;\)
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#807542 - 07/03/08 07:06 PM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: Crosshairy]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6318
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Got this email from Bob Sneed today...


Gil & Jon:

You guys had each e-mailed me about silt entering the Caney Fork River a
short distance downstream of Center Hill Dam over this past weekend. Based
on inspections by our construction folks it appears that the source of the
sediment was ongoing construction activity related to the seepage project;
however, identifying the direct source is not as clear-cut as you would
expect it to be. We looked back at Doppler rainfall data on our system and
saw where the construction site was hit by a short duration, high intensity
storm on Saturday. As a result of this event we have directed that
additional erosion control measures be implemented. Currently, this is a
very dynamic work site with respect to excavation and fill activities taking
place in close proximity to each other. The erosion control measures will
continue to be monitored and revised as necessary. Thanks again for alerting
us to this situation. If you observe any future sediment releases please let
me know and I will alert our construction office.

Bob
_________________________
It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#810760 - 07/07/08 05:37 AM Re: Caney Fork: BIG Silt Plume from Dam Repairs [Re: B.D.]
snaildarter
4 Point


Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 144
Loc: Knoxville, TN

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I'm not sure who Mr. Sneed works for, but TDEC should be notified of this sediment release. The work I do is directly related to sediment and erosion control and that type of release usually is cause for a fine or at the minimum a notice of violation (N.O.V.) from TDEC (especially when it can be directly related to a construction site). Whoever has the photos I would pass them along to the Cookeville TDEC EFO with a time and date. I have a contact there, but I'll have to look his name up at work today. Just so everyone knows you can also report these type releases to the EPA, they are required to follow up on these types releases. Also the erosion and sediment controls on construction sites with over one acre of disturbed soils are "supposed" to be designed for a 2 year / 24 hours storm event. I would like to know how much rain fell and over how many hours. There are also many other regulations that come along with having over 1 acre of disturbed soil, such as having to have a storm water pollution prevention plan (swppp) and performing bi-weekly inspections of the erosion and pollution prevention measures on site.

But, I have a feeling since this project is dam safety related and is probably being overseen by the USACE nothing will come of any reports to other regulatory agencies.

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