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#755795 - 05/27/08 11:08 AM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
AlanP
TWRA Biologist
8 Point


Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 2486
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
No. We did not score them. All we have is age, weight, number of points, main beam length, and beam diameters. Oh, and we have photos somewhere (If I can remember where the heck I stored them on the hard drive)
_________________________
If you don't look at the teeth, you're guessing at the age.

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#756344 - 05/27/08 04:01 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: AlanP]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5098
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

Offline
Alan,

I've been kinda planning on what hunts I'll put in for and it got me to thinking.............

What was the purpose of the "9pt" rule? On PI, maybe I can see it but what about the other WMA's this affects? Just wondering why and how you guys came up with that I guess.

Yeah, I'm bored.
_________________________
Official BTR Scorer in NW Alabama and southern middle Tennessee

http://twitter.com/AlabamaSwamper

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#756360 - 05/27/08 04:07 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: AlanP]
BowGuy84
10 Point


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 4904
Loc: Nashville, TN and Louisville, ...

Offline
what if PI had a competensy aging test. That you had to pass in order to be elligable to be drawn. It wouldnt be hard, then if you passed the test and shot a 1.5 or younger you could be fined like shooting a buck that isnt up to specs on these outfitters land.

Yeah you couldnt just apply the first year (you would also have to take the test) but the test could carry over to subsequent years (like the priority points system). It would limit out the nonserious hunters, and anyone who really wanted to do it could easily pass...there is so much info out there on aging that anyone can learn to make the distinction between a 1.5 and older class buck.

The only down side to this is more of your lower end deer will be taken but if it is really about "hunter satisfaction" I think this would raise it over having to let good 8's walk.

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#756485 - 05/27/08 04:55 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
AlanP
TWRA Biologist
8 Point


Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 2486
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: AlabamaSwamper
Alan,

What was the purpose of the "9pt" rule?


I originally set up the PI hunt regulations based on several assumptions (some of which grew from concrete data, some of which are still questionable).

1. Virtually no yearlings have 9 antler points in Region I, based on harvest data. (I think I have seen 2 in 23 years)

2. Many yearlings have 8 antler points in Region I. (I can't count how many I have seen)

3. The soils on PI are some of the best in the state.

4. Given excellent soils, the growth should come close to matching the genetic potential.

5. In areas of excellent soil, a spike yearling may be a spike because of his genetics.

6. A spike yearling (in excellent soils) may have less growth potential than an 8 point yearling.

7. A lot of breeding takes place in November.

Based on those factors, I set up the regulations as follows:

We have two spike/doe hunts in late October (before a lot of breeding takes place). We do this for two reasons, to cut down the number of does needing to be bred once the rut gets cranked up, and to remove spikes from the possibility of participating in breeding. (If a spike on PI is a spike because of "bad" genetics, we take him out before the rut)

We have no hunts in November. Again, for two reasons, to allow as much early breeding as possible without disturbance, and to allow big bucks the chance to pass on genes before hunters take them out. Since we have taken some does out in the October hunts, the remaining does should have no trouble getting bred early because there are fewer of them for the available bucks.

We have the nine point rule to give absolute protection to yearlings, and significant protection to many 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old bucks. It also limits the number of bucks taken annually. (My biggest fear was that we would set the standards too low and take too many bucks one year, and then have to wait several years for the buck population to rebound. I would rather have a small number of really good bucks taken every year.)

Another reason for the nine point rule is: On a hunt club, you can set a spread, or age, or neck-size, or whatever rule you want for your club, and if you screw up, the club members scold you, or fine you, or whatever. On a WMA, the rule is set in the law. If you screw up, you get a ticket, go to court, appear before a judge, get fined, and have the potential to lose your hunting equipment. On top of which, anyone with a hunting license can put in for the hunt, which means hunters of vastly differing experience levels can apply, from novices to tremendously experienced hunters. Not every hunter can judge age, or spread, or gross B&C score on the hoof, but most of them can count to 9.

The big buck hunt is in December, after a lot of breeding has taken place, but while the rut is still in progress. That gives hunters an opportunity to see single-minded bucks, ignoring the dangers in the tree stands, running all over the Island, chasing does. Since the bucks have had all of November to pass on their genes, the danger of taking "good" genes out is minimized. We also have the hunt in December to "disturb" late breeding, at least a little bit.

Whether or not the goals, successes, reasoning, methods, failures, or whatever aspect regarding the PI hunts anyone wants to discuss are perfect or not, is an open question. Anyone who wishes can criticize any aspect they wish. But, I will stand by my methods and reasoning because it is accomplishing the goals I set when I developed the regulations. If, or when, the goals are no longer being met, I will re-think the methods.
_________________________
If you don't look at the teeth, you're guessing at the age.

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#756498 - 05/27/08 05:01 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: BowGuy84]
AlanP
TWRA Biologist
8 Point


Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 2486
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BowGuy84
... if it is really about "hunter satisfaction" I think this would raise it over having to let good 8's walk.


I wish everyone commenting on PI could talk to the hunters who have been able to participate in the "big buck hunts." I have. I assure you, the "hunter satisfaction" level is higher at PI than any other hunt I have been associated with. Ever. Anywhere. (Except maybe on the Ensley portion. That's a lot harder to hunt.)
_________________________
If you don't look at the teeth, you're guessing at the age.

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#756572 - 05/27/08 06:04 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: AlanP]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4078
Loc: Hardin, Co.

Offline
Looks like to me its the best hunting in the state. And with 600 hunters on the waiting list, it looks like we need more places like it. I wish TWRA would try to buy more land in west TN like they have in East TN.
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#756724 - 05/27/08 07:48 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
RKenney
10 Point


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3646
Loc: Maury Co.

Offline
Question about the "9 point rule". If a hunter killed an 8 point
buck at PI that say scored 175 B&C, would he be fined and the
deer taken from him? In my years of deer hunting, I have seen
countless 8 pointers outscore 10 pointers.

I guess my point is...there are 9 pointers...and there are 9
POINTERS.

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#756746 - 05/27/08 08:09 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: RKenney]
AlanP
TWRA Biologist
8 Point


Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 2486
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Each of the nine points must be a minimum of one inch long. It is a law under the WMA proclamation. If a hunter kills a buck that does not meet that minimum, he can receive a citation (ticket) with a court date. Depending on the situation, and the specific circumstances, he could be fined, pay court costs, lose the deer, lose his hunting equipment, and (if a judge decided to) lose an ATV, truck, or anything used to haul an illegal deer. (I'm not saying all of that would happen. It would be more likely to happen if the hunter did it and tried to hide it, or run. If a hunter brought the deer to the check station and said, "I screwed up," he would probably get off with just a fine and court costs. The point is: On a WMA, the rules have the force of law, as opposed to a hunt club's rules.) The reason for the 9 point rule was to protect all of the bucks needing protection, to meet the goals of a true trophy area, while keeping it simple so hunters don't become violators accidentally.

I understand there are big bucks which may go unharvested. And I understand that requires some level of sacrifice. We could have eliminated any need to sacrifice by using a 4 point rule and opening PI to rifle hunts. We could have killed a ton of nice bucks...for a year or two. Then we would have to wait another three or four years to get back to square one.
_________________________
If you don't look at the teeth, you're guessing at the age.

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#757285 - 05/28/08 07:42 AM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: AlanP]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5098
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...

Offline
Fair enough Alan and thanks for the explanation. Very interesting to read why you did this on PI.

PI is the exception in Tennessee and a super place I'm sure. I'd love to just sit and video on that place during the rut.
_________________________
Official BTR Scorer in NW Alabama and southern middle Tennessee

http://twitter.com/AlabamaSwamper

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#760160 - 05/29/08 07:41 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: BSK]
Boone 58
16 Point


Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 14721
Loc: Food Plot

content Online
cool
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The problem in America is not that ungodly people have said yes to ungodly things, but rather that Godly people have refused to say "no" to ungodly things.
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