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#637185 - 02/28/08 07:15 AM Re: Decided on the build [Re: BucknBass]
Whelen Man
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The 243AI is what I was leaning towards for my rifle build last fall. I was talked out of it by a friend who had built one and then just didn't get the results he wanted. He and others talked me into the 6BRX. It all depends on what you want it for and how often you want to change barrels. Every time you add more powder you shorten barrel life, but don't you like a cartridge that shoots flat. Some of the newer generations of bullets just cry out for more velocity.
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#638108 - 02/28/08 03:32 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: mr.big]
Locksley
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 Originally Posted By: mr.big
the 6mmAI is a magnum in my mind.


6mmAI is a magnum of course each man has his dreams each must seak his answers in his own way.
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#638365 - 02/28/08 06:54 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: Locksley]
mr.big
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If I was using the 243 I would go short action,,Since I have the long action I figured the 6AI would be the top of the line balistically without gettin a real bbl burner.

in the low 50`s grains of RL22 or 7828 with the 95 gr Sierra seems to be an ideal load.
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#638403 - 02/28/08 07:15 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: mr.big]
Happy Birthday TiminTN
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I think I`d much prefer the 6mm over the 243, and brass is brass. The fireforming is the PIA part.
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#638648 - 02/28/08 08:46 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: TiminTN]
vonb
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Tim,
Where are you finding RWS brass? Last I heard, they weren't sending any brass over due to exchange rates. Would love to find some.

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#638664 - 02/28/08 08:50 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: TiminTN]
Locksley
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Registered: 10/23/01
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I have always prefered a real bbl burner ever since I started varmint hunting.

David Lloyd (riflemaker and sportsman)
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David Llewellyn Lloyd (d. 1996) was an English deer-stalker, metallurgist, ballistician and sporting rifle maker, of Northamptonshire, England and Glencassley in Sutherland, Scotland. After service in the Royal Flying Corps in the First World War, extensive deer stalking, and frequent rifle shooting visits to Bisley ranges, Lloyd established the David Lloyd & Co. riflemakers company (registered company 05202134) at Pipewell Hall in 1936, and in the early 1950s developed the .244 H&H Magnum rifle cartridge, later adopted by Holland and Holland of London.
Lloyd developed the distinctive Lloyd rifle concept, and from the 1960s to the mid 1990s he built high-quality, magazine-fed sporting rifles with distinctively integral scope sights, capable of dependably high accuracy at long ranges, and of handling modern high-intensity, flat shooting cartridges such as the .244 H&H, the .264 Winchester Magnum and the .25-06 Remington.
The UK shooting sports weekly Shooting Times voted the Lloyd rifle number 8 in its list of the top 12 Rifles of All Time (the Kalashnikov AK-47 was number 7), and Country Life magazine described Lloyd himself as “a National Living Treasure”. Lloyd rifles are admired, owned and used by eminent international small-arms experts, including riflemakers Bill Ruger and Roy Weatherby, and by several owners of Scottish deer forests.
In an active deer-stalking career extending to well over 60 years, David Lloyd accounted for more than 5,000 Scottish highland red deer stags, the vast majority of them with rifles he had built himself.
Lloyd's wife Evadne (“Bobby” - the longest-serving governor of the Royal Shakespeare Company in its history) keenly supported him in his business, and helped him to source fine walnut blanks for his rifle stocks from various European sources. On Lloyd's death in 1996 she took on the business, which by then was doing little trading, and ran it until her own death in 2003, when the company was sold to John Shirley, formerly Technical Manager with James Purdey and Sons of London. He subsequently offered the business name, goodwill and records of the David Lloyd company for sale at auction in London in December, 2006.
The Lloyd Rifle was the 1950s brainchild of English deer-stalker, rifleman, metallurgist and engineer David Llewellyn Lloyd. His objective was to create a high-quality, scope-sighted, magazine-fed sporting rifle capable of dependably high accuracy at long ranges, of retaining its zero despite rough handling, and of firing modern high-intensity, flat shooting cartridges such as the .244 H&H Magnum (which Lloyd himself developed) and the .264 Winchester Magnum.
[edit] Design
Requirement
As an enthusiastic stalker of Highland Red deer on his family's own deer forest at Glencassley, and elsewhere in northern Scotland - he grassed more than 5,000 Red deer stags in a career lasting some 60 years - Lloyd sought a rifle which would shoot high powered cartridges giving an exceptionally flat trajectory and significant long range hitting power, to make it straightforward to take shots out to 300 yards and more on very sloping, mountainous terrain, without the need for very precise range-judging. A very early convert to the use of scope sights in the conservative world of British deerstalking, Lloyd was impatient with the weak scope mounting systems available in the early 20th century, and sought a solution.
Mauser action
For his preferred rifle action Lloyd selected the Mauser 98 bolt-action, for its inherent strength and proven potential for accuracy, and on his rifles only the bolt face (to suit the cartridge) and the back-swept bolt handle were modified from the Mauser norm.
[edit] Telescopic sight
Integral to the Lloyd rifle was a telescopic sight - indeed, Lloyd rifles came with no iron sights, and no provision for fitting them without some difficulty - and the majority of Lloyd rifles were delivered to their owners fitted with fixed-power scopes, usually of 4X or 6X magnification, by makers such as Habicht, Zeiss, Swarovski and Hensoldt. The scope was held in a specially designed, integral, immensely strong, receiver-enshrouding mount which positioned it very low over the action, and gripped both the scope and the rifle action in massive rings of steel. Lloyd held UK Patent Number 646419 for this design.
With this scope attachment - indeed, integration - system, Lloyd's intention was to create a rifle which was, so far as humanly possible, immune to the shocks, bumps and jars that so often knocked the scopes on other rifles seriously out of alignment. The objective was to have a rifle which, once completed, could be zeroed for a selected cartridge load and a chosen zero distance, and which would faithfully hold that zero from outing to outing, and even from one shooting season to another. "I want a stable platform from which to shoot," Lloyd said. In his quest for this tenacity of zero, he was largely successful, and many of his customers reported that they had never found it necessary to make any adjustment whatsoever to their rifles' sights over many years of use. There are also reports of Lloyd rifles having successfully survived serious mishaps such as falls from considerable heights, and even being run over by vehicles, without losing zero.
[edit] Barrels and stocks
Most of Lloyd's barrels were made under contract by Vickers Armstrong Ltd. and the Mauser 98 actions were prepared by Holland & Holland. Although Lloyd enjoyed sourcing the walnut for the rifles' stocks himself, visiting growers and dealers across Europe, many of the rifles were stocked-up by Wisemans. In making rifles, Lloyd also had close working relationships with the firms of W. W. Greener, Webley & Scott, W.J. Jeffery, John Rigby and John Wilkes.
Externally, the Lloyd rifle is distinctive for its very streamlined profile, with the scope mounted very low above the action, and a very elegant but ergonomically efficient stock, invariably of selected dark, well-figured French walnut. Lloyd sourced the best available walnut on personal trips to parts of Europe, and was actively assisted in this by his wife Evadne ("Bobby" - the longest-serving governor in the history of the Royal Shakespeare Company)
[edit] Influence
The Lloyd rifle was initially marketed as the "David Lloyd Telescope Sighted Deer Stalking Rifle". David Lloyd had a private 400-yard rifle range in the grounds of his ancestral home, Pipewell Hall, Northamptonshire, and used it to set the zero of all his rifles before delivery to their owners.
Lloyd rifles, and the .244 H&H Magnum cartridge, were influential in sporting firearms and cartridge design and development in the mid-20th century. Both were widely admired by British deer-stalking enthusiasts and international sporting arms experts, and were owned and used by, among others, Bill Ruger, Roy Weatherby, Lord "Skips" Riverdale, the Marquess of Linlithgow and Mrs Patricia Strutt, doyenne of British lady stalkers with a lifetime's bag of over 2,000 stags, who ordered one for her 75th birthday and used it up to her death aged 89.
Shooting Times magazine voted the Lloyd rifle number 8 in its lineup of the Top 12 Rifles of All Time (the Kalashnikov AK-47 came number 7), and Country Life declared Lloyd himself to be a "National Living Treasure".
Lloyd rifles are generally accurate, with most shooting to 1.5 MOA or better; but the massive scope mounts integral to the Lloyd concept had the effect of bending and torqueing the rifles' actions out of blueprint. This inevitably caused stresses and imperfections, preventing the rifles achieving the full precision accuracy potential of the cartridges used. But within the approximately 300 yard ranges for which they had been designed and zeroed, Lloyd's rifles in fast magnum calibres performed very well.
The majority of Lloyd rifles were chambered in .244 H&H Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum and .25-06 Remington.
[edit] Company
Lloyd's wife Evadne took over the Lloyd Rifle Company in 1996 on David's death, and ran it until her own death in 2003. The company was then briefly owned by John Shirley, a former Technical Director of James Purdey and Sons of London, and its name, goodwill and records were later offered for sale by him at auction in London on 14 December, 2006.
[edit] References
· Brown, Nigel : British Gunmakers (vol. 2) Birmingham, Scotland and the Regions (pub. Quiller Press, 2005) - rifle records, serial numbers and calibres
· http://www.auction-net.co.uk/viewAuction.php?id=300&offset=250&PHPSESSID=02dc66f39ebefeae5e80cb12b (Auction Sale Catalogue, sale of Lloyd Rifle Company, 14 December 2006)

The Deer Forest is an institution and phenomenon peculiar to the Highlands of Scotland. It denotes a sporting estate which is kept and managed largely or solely for the purposes of maintaining a resident population of red deer for sporting (deer stalking) purposes.

Typically, deer forests are in hilly and mountainous areas of the Highlands and Islands; and, despite the use of the term "forest" they are almost all devoid of trees. They usually extend to 10,000 acres (40 km²) and more, and deer which live there belong to the small-bodied, hill-dwelling race of red deer typical of northern Scotland, which have adapted to life on open hills after the loss of woodland habitat.

Most deer forests are not fenced or enclosed in any way, and the deer can move freely across large tracts of hill country. Boundaries, referred to as marches, are usually marked by a river, stream, ridge, shoreline or similar natural feature. Hind forests and stag forests are so called because of the tendencies of red deer to form large, single-sex herds outside the autumn rutting time, and most forests hold either a resident stag herd or a hind herd for much of the year.

In deer forest, the term forest is dervied from the ancient and medieval use of the Latin word foris - "open" or "waste", to denote an extensive outdoor "waste area" kept as a hunting preserve.[citation needed]

Scotland's deer forests are almost all privately owned and managed, although a few once-distinguished forests such as Torridon and Glenfeshie have moved into semi-public ownership via bodies such as the National Trust for Scotland, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Ministry of Defence, and sporting deer stalking is no longer carried on there.


[edit] References
Deer Stalking Scotland


Edited by Locksley (02/28/08 09:48 PM)
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#638909 - 02/28/08 10:31 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: Locksley]
mr.big
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I really like the idea of the 6AI in a long action throated properly,,,I bet it would run with the 6-284.
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#638952 - 02/28/08 10:59 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: mr.big]
Locksley
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Registered: 10/23/01
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243/06 Wildcat Rifle aka 6mm-06 100 grain Sierra SBT - Deer Antelope Ballistics

The longer range leads are shown for illustration purposes only! Never take a running shot beyond your shooting skill levels, you need to believe strongly that you can make the shot before you squeeze the trigger! One hundred yards will be the limit for most hunters on running deer. You must have a safe clear shooting situation! DANGER! Do NOT shoot at running deer in the Midwest & Eastern states unless the SHOT is totally safe to take!

In many southeastern states in the United States, deer are hunted with trail hounds where running shots are the norm. Those Southeastern states include: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina and Virginia. They post themselves at clearings where the hounds will push them through so they can get a quick shot at them in full flight! They use both rifles and shot guns with buckshot. For clean kills the proper leads are required with both weapons. (This information is needed by a lot of deer hunters, so don't give me any flak for posting it.)

We need running deer and coyote targets on most of our rifle ranges to foster some friendly competition. Back around the late 1950's and early 1960's they rigged up a pretty good running deer target near Glen Haven, WI. I loved those competitive events, --we need more of them today! The winner of each group of 5 or 6 shooter's got (I believe) a frozen turkey or turkey breast.

In this age of technology advancements we need to have moving targets at every rifle range! Lets get it done, some commercial enterprise could make a ton of money designing and selling workable moving rifle target systems. The S.W. Wisconsin Sportsman's Club at Potosi, WI has an excellent running deer target setup (See the deer target on my other Web page).

A deer running 30mph/44fps at 100 yards and a 90 degree angle | 44 X's .092= a 4 foot lead. In a tenth of a second (.1) of bullet flight time the deer would move 4.4 feet. At around 250 yards with a bullet flight time of a fourth of a second (.25) of bullet flight time the deer moves (deer 44 fps X's .25 of /sec. of bullet flight time, (or ¼ of a sec) = 11 feet), it is that simple! Figure your own leads!

1000 ft/lbs. of energy is considered adequate to kill deer sized big game. This means the 243/06 Wildcat, (aka 6mm-06 Wildcat), has the retained energy to be a 600 yard coyote cartridge with 87 grain Hornady V-Max, .400 B.C., or 85 grain BTHP Sierra bullets, or a 500 yards deer cartridge with the 95 or 100 grain bullets. The 85 grain bullet is the lightest bullet I use in my Wildcat Magnum Cartridge.

A whitetail deer can run up to 40 mph, so I added the 40 mph leads; 150 yards might be your farthest running shot at that speed. To figure the leads, you multiply the bullet's flight time by the speed in fps of the target, deer or coyote. That is how far the animal will move during the bullets' fraction of a seconds' flight time.

This 243/06 has 1073 ft/lbs. of energy at 500 yards with the 100 grain bullet above, which is adequate for taking whitetail deer. Compare it in respect to: trajectory, wind drift, and retained energy to the 30/06 at the longer ranges.

This is a flat shooting wind bucking tornado of a cartridge for deer or coyotes at medium to long range. My problem is that I don't have the shooting ability I used to have, and didn't shoot at all for around 25 year span when I was living in city environments.

This 243/06 wildcat with the 100 grain bullet has a bullet flight time, lead and trajectory ballistics that are almost identical to the 7mm Rem. Ultra Mag with a 140 grain Nosler ballistic tip bullet. See my Ultra Mag table, page link.

Whisky Chamberlain of Idaho took 15 consecutive big bull elk, all one shot kills, with a straight .243 Winchester, therefore I believe with the right bullet and will placed and proper ranged shots the .243/06 Wildcat ought to be adequate on elk. I don't want to buy a new larger caliber rifle just to go elk hunting once or twice.


Today, 03/04/07, I just saw on the Men's Channel - Dish-TV CH 218, a massive old Elk shot at over 200-yards & dropped in his tracks with a .243-Winchester with open iron sights. They did not mention the bullet weight or construction type, however, it proved to me that a Well Placed .243 bullet at 200-yards will deck the biggest Elk that walks. Therefore, my 243/06 Wildcat ought to do the job on big Whitetails, big Mule Deer and on Elk with the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded bullets.


In the 243 Winchester for big Mule deer & Elk, I would use the 100-grain Remington Core-Lokt Ultra factory cartidges, now when reloading I would use the 100-grain Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded bullets.


All those TV hunting programs should give all the fine point details about the rifle caliber & bullet weight and construction type! That would make those programs much more interesting to all of us.
===================
1000 ft/lbs of energy is considered adequate to kill deer sized big game. This means the 243/06 Wildcat has the retained energy to be a 600 yard coyote cartridge, with the 100 or 85 grain BTHP Sierra bullets. That is the lightest bullet I use in this Wildcat magnum cartridge. You're not going to shoot at a running coyote much beyond 200 yards.

As Randy Christensen stated to me at the Potosi, WI's running deer target shoot 10-06-02, that the 243/06 is reamed with a .243 cartridge size reamer with its shoulder taper, the 6mm-06 is reamed with a 30-06 cartridge sized reamer with its shoulder taper. This is what I had always believed but never verified. Therefore, a 243/06 has more powder capacity than a 6mm/06 Wildcat. I'll look up the specs later and list them.
==============
More on the Potosi Sportsman's Club shoot soon, with photos.

My latest 243/06 Wildcat deer loads | new 95 grain Hornady SST bullet and 100 grain Hornady [Interlock] loads | 58 grs. H-4831sc Federal 215 PRIs | Both okay in my rifle, --only! I decided to go to "the 100 grain Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded bullets for deer in my 243/06." Look for my .243/06 Wildcat loads on the left side of my split-screen links' page.
===================
Hornady's New 6mm SST Bullet is on sale now, August 2002 | B.C., may be .355 ?| 95 gr. SST BT tip with a flat-base to provide the needed stability. In 1 in 10" twist barrels at .243 Win. Velocities with a boat-tail the bullet hit target sideways at 200 yds.
I bought a box of 100 for around $18.45 with the tax at Cabela's today, 8/18/02. Will try them in my 243/06 Wildcat and 243 Win.! I'm going to start shooting more flat-based bullets in my 6MM's, the claim is that they are not as hard on barrel's and tend to be more accurate.

The hydraulic shock of this SST bullet ought to be similar to the ballistic tip bullets. I will only use it beyond 200 yards in my 243/06, its very accurate in my wildcat. Otherwise it will be the 100 grain Nosler partition bullet for deer.
Click on SST - Super Shock Tipped Bullets Flat-based bullets HUNTING MAG


Rick Jamison writer for Petersen's Hunting Magazine, July 2002, p- 20, Guns & Loads Article Long Rangers, - http://www.huntingmag.com says in essence that for deer sized game you need a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs of energy and 2000 ft/sec velocity at the impact range for adequate bullet expansion. The bullet needs a sectional density between .215 to .265 and a high ballistic coefficient for long range shots. This is a great Hunting Magazine, I subscribe through the local school magazine drives.

You can look at the various ballistic tables I have on the Net and determine the approximate outer range limit your cartridge and selected bullet will be capable of killing a deer with a well placed shot. If you can't put the bullet in the vital kill zone don't take the shot no matter how capable the cartridge you're using is at that range.


Let me know how this NEW bullet performs: Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Ammunition
The special bonded construction retains 90% of original weight and delivers controlled expansion "up to" 1.8 times the original diameter. Serious performance from point blank range "out to 500 yards." Forget about shooting deer at 500 yards with any bullet with a standard 243 Winchester cartridge, follow Rick Jamison's advice in the paragraph above! Cabela's carries this NEW cartridge in .243 Winchester.
----------------
"Here is the 25 yard .243 Win., 100 Grain Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded Bullet Terminal Performance Test I Promised."

I used (3) three gallon capped plastic milk jugs and another 1.56 gallon Ultra Sun clothes detergent plastic jug filled with water backed up with numerous old magazines. That's going through (4) four jugs back to back.


The 100 grain Core-Lokt Ultra bullet demonstrated tremendous explosive performance on the first jug going through all four jugs and found in front of the magazines. At only 25 yards the mushroomed bullet weighed 84.8 grains with an over 2X .489 caliber diameter that went past the base of the bullet.


This was very impressive bullet weight retention at close range! These bonded bullets will be more dangerous to shoot in respect to ricochet and shoot through scenarios. I would like to see how they would perform on Elk!





Side view - bullet base- left side (25 yds 100 gr retained 84.8 gr new Core- Lokt Ultra 243 Win.) nose view


In my 243 Win the 100 grain Nosler Partition bullet blew open (3) three one gallon capped plastic milk jugs full of water sitting in a row at 16 paces, and was still going with no bullet recovery.


The 95-SST blew-up one jug and one tiny fragment caused a very small leak in the second jug - my 243 Win.
I would only use the 95-SST at 100 yards plus on broadside lung shots only - it has a lot of violent explosive hydraulic shocking power due to all of its energy being shed within the first plastic milk gallon jug of water. [in my 243 Win.]


I performed a 95-gr SST bullet terminal test with my 243/06 Wildcat, at only 16 long paces with two one gallon plastic milk jugs filled with water lined up with a short distance between them. The bullet totally blew-up the first one and blew the second water jug up, leaving the remainder of the bullet's copper jacket inside it. The remaining jacket only weighed 22.2 grains of the original 95 grains. A very safe bullet to use when shooting deer sized game at close ranges. [243/06 Wildcat, also eronously known as 6mm-06 Wildcat]

On 10/17/04, I filled 3 one gallon plastic milk jugs with water lined in a row at 15 yards and shot them using my Remington 722 with a 22" BBL, in my "243 Winchester" using the Hornady 95 grain SST bullet and 44 grains of RL 19. It blew the first two up big time and went through the third one gallon jug of water. This should be a very good high-shock terminal performance bullet at closer ranges on deer in the 243 Winchester caliber cartridge.

In the 6mm caliber, I prefer the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded bullets for large whitetail & mule deer. You don't always get the perfect broadside shots seen on TV! When a kill shot is available where I hunt, you better get on target quick & squeeze off the shot!

http://www.udarrell.com/243-06-ballistics-sierra.htm
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#638976 - 02/28/08 11:14 PM Re: Decided on the build [Re: Locksley]
mr.big
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Locksley,,this thing is gonna throw a 95 gr bullet with a BC over .500 at around 3300 FPS,,its not gonna be a hunting or target rifle,but more like a trick shot plinker,,

hey man you see that hedgeapple out there about 650,,bet ya 20 I can hit it type thing..
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#639060 - 02/29/08 12:50 AM Re: Decided on the build [Re: mr.big]
Locksley
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Registered: 10/23/01
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 Originally Posted By: mr.big
Locksley,,this thing is gonna throw a 95 gr bullet with a BC over .500 at around 3300 FPS,,its not gonna be a hunting or target rifle,but more like a trick shot plinker,,

hey man you see that hedgeapple out there about 650,,bet ya 20 I can hit it type thing..


A plinker=223 Remington Mini -14 Ruger to me .
Cheap ammo fast shooting but alais not 650 yards away .But of course each man has his dreams each must seak his answers in his own way.
More can be less but less can never be more .


Edited by Locksley (02/29/08 12:56 AM)
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