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#597155 - 02/03/08 04:03 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: megalomaniac]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19036
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
Okay, Wes, I got you now...
. . . . . any average hunter can be educated in 5-10 minutes on the difference between a yearling and everything else, so disallowing only yearlings on PI would be feasible.

Since these are "managed" hunts with TWRA personnel aging each deer anyway, it would seem no less feasible than requiring 9 points an inch or more in length. On a personnel level as a hunter, should I make an honest mistake and have my deer confiscated at the check station, I'd prefer it be because it was a yearling buck than because it was a mature buck with only 8 points.

 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
But PI is still an incredible hunting opportunity for the average TN deer hunter.

Absolutely.
But does that experience have much if anything to do with the antler restrictions? Would it be even better without them?


 Originally Posted By: Radar
I agree with the concept of age restrictions like Wes mentioned, but aging deer on the hoof takes plenty of experience. I have seen experts mess up too .
Counting points is easier for most hunters, and it doesn't take a wealth of experience to count.

Again, in the context of this thread and comparing the current antler restrictions on just those WMA's (in TN) that are using ARs --- I am only trying to debate the merits of making only yearling bucks non-shooters in lieu of those current antler restrictions --- we are not talking about "aging" deer to any extent beyond "yearling" buck.

I would counter it doesn't take a wealth of experience (just minimal instruction) to identify a yearling buck either. In fact, I believe in most field situations while hunting, it is easier to identify a yearling than to count 9 points.

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#598193 - 02/04/08 09:34 AM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64820
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: tndrbstr
Heck some people apparently can't even count the number of points on a buck, how could they be expected to age a deer on the hoof?


Estimating exact age is difficult, and even the best make mistakes. But I think what Wes was talking about was knowing the difference between a young buck and an old buck. That is MUCH easier than counting points. You will know it at a glance.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#598347 - 02/04/08 11:39 AM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: BSK]
Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27457
Loc: TN

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I see the point and agree a yearling is easily identifiable by body type. However the 9 point rule also eliminates 95% of yearlings as well. Once the bucks reach 2 1/2 they are harder to differintiate from a 3 1/2 for the average hunter by body type, where the 9 point rule hasnt changed with age. I myself wish we could hunt by age, but for the majority of TN hunters ( which hunt maybe 2 weekends a year) its not feasible, especially if your limiting anything but yearlings, becomes way to complicated for most, especially on snap decisions.
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#598458 - 02/04/08 01:11 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: Winchester]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64820
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Except 9 points can be awfully hard to see too. Maybe it's because I focus on the body so much when buck hunting. But I often misjudge points (underestimate the total number until the buck is on the ground).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#598480 - 02/04/08 01:26 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19036
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . . I often misjudge points (underestimate the total number until the buck is on the ground).

Same here.

Personally, I honestly don't even care how many "points" a buck has --- unless I was on a place like President's Island with a 9-pt rule --- I wouldn't give a flying rat's [censored] whether the buck I decided to kill was an 8-pointer or a 9-pointer.

I normally am focused on age and gross antler mass.

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#598486 - 02/04/08 01:34 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64820
Loc: Nashville, TN

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I couple of years ago, I had a 60 yard stare-down with a mature buck. He was looking (and facing) right at me. All I noticed was his massive chest and neck. I never even noticed he had a 5 1/2" drop-tine off one antler. How could you miss that with the buck staring right at you, and your staring at him through a 3X scope? Finding that drop-tine was a real pleasant surpise when I walked up on the downed buck.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#598734 - 02/04/08 04:48 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: BSK]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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The biggest bodied buck I have ever seen was following a group of does through a picked Cornfield up in Mi.
He looked like a cow compared to the does . A buck was killed by a car on the road nearby that field dressed at 235 lbs.
Up in Mi. there was no question when you saw a mature buck . They were so much bigger in body size than the other bucks .
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#599569 - 02/04/08 10:53 PM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: BSK]
gil1
12 Point


Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6339
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I couple of years ago, I had a 60 yard stare-down with a mature buck. He was looking (and facing) right at me. All I noticed was his massive chest and neck. I never even noticed he had a 5 1/2" drop-tine off one antler. How could you miss that with the buck staring right at you, and your staring at him through a 3X scope? Finding that drop-tine was a real pleasant surpise when I walked up on the downed buck.


Remember the double drop tined buck I shot a couple months ago? I knew there was something different about his headgear when I saw him, but I didn't know he had droptines until he was dead. I knew instantly that he was a shooter, and I never looked at his rack again. Thank Gawd because I would fall out of the tree hyperventilating if all I looked at was headgear. I thought he was an 8-pointer - he was an 11.
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It is not the killing ...; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport.

Dr. Saxton Pope

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#755626 - 05/27/08 10:19 AM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: gil1]
AlanP
TWRA Biologist
8 Point


Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 2486
Loc: Tennessee

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Wes,

I posted this on the other thread, before I realized you had begun a new thread.

 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
BECAUSE of antler restrictions, the best antlered 2 1/2-yr-old bucks are killed at a higher rate on President's Island WMA than they would be killed if there were no antler restrictions at all.


Wes,

I do not believe the data supports your contention. If you look at the age data for President's Island, (from the big buck hunts) I don't think you can make a case that the best antlered bucks are killed out at 2 1/2.


Age.....2 1/2.....3 1/2.....4 1/2....5 1/2+

Year
2001......0..........5.........0..........0
2002......1..........2.........3..........1
2003......2..........5.........3..........2
2004......1..........2.........3..........7
2005......0..........1.........3..........3
2006......1..........3.........3..........2
2007......0..........4.........1..........2

Out of 60 bucks taken on the big buck hunts, only five have been 2 1/2 years old.

 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish

And even those places where the majority of yearling bucks are fork-horns or smaller, if they use antler restrictions, BECAUSE of those antler restrictions, the best antlered younger bucks will be killed at a higher rate --- leaving fewer of the best to reach the older age classes.


Again... Not at President's Island. Every yearling buck killed has been a spike. The 9-point rule has protected ALL branch-antlered yearlings. So far, the yearling harvests, on the spike buck hunts, have been:

......Yearling Spikes
2001.......6
2002.......2
2003.......2
2004.......2
2005.......2
2006.......1
2007.......1
_________________________
If you don't look at the teeth, you're guessing at the age.

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#755743 - 05/27/08 11:02 AM Re: AGE vs. ANTLERS on select TWRA-Managed WMAs [Re: AlanP]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4078
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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 Originally Posted By: AlanP
If you look at the age data for President's Island, (from the big buck hunts) I don't think you can make a case that the best antlered bucks are killed out at 2 1/2.


Age.....2 1/2.....3 1/2.....4 1/2....5 1/2+

Year
2001......0..........5.........0..........0
2002......1..........2.........3..........1
2003......2..........5.........3..........2
2004......1..........2.........3..........7
2005......0..........1.........3..........3
2006......1..........3.........3..........2
2007......0..........4.........1..........2

Out of 60 bucks taken on the big buck hunts, only five have been 2 1/2 years old.


Alan, have you got the scores of those bucks. I would love to see how the those different age groups compare in score from PI.
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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