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#528574 - 12/14/07 11:28 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64982
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Exactly woodchuckc. Thank you.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528578 - 12/14/07 11:31 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Does it matter who contributes (mother/father)?, Does it matter what % is contributed from whom?, as long as it is. If you control(to some extant) the quality of whats being passed on, does it matter where the trait was passed from?(Mother,Father,Grandmothers cousins brother)
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#528593 - 12/14/07 11:39 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17800
Loc: Branchville

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 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
The problem is, the specific expression (called the phenotype) of many inherited traits are NOT contributed 50% from the female and 50% from the male. The most straightforward example is that any physical traits that are expressed from an X chromosome come EXCLUSIVELY from the mother of the male offspring. So if there are any significant parts of the complex equation of "antler genetics" carried by the X chromosome, the father of a male offspring will not contribute anything toward those.

It is actually a lot more complex than this, and even with traits for many other characteristics (in humans, anyway) that are not linked to the X chromosome there is a much stronger linkage to the maternal genetic contribution than the paternal one.

The problem is that we don't know at this time what the relative contributions to the antler phenotype are from the maternal versus paternal genetics. What we have is evidence based on observed patterns of inherited antler characteristics, which suggest that maternal genetic contribution is at least as important if not MORE important than the paternal contribution. Added into this is the dispersal behavior of bucks relative to does that BSK pointed out above - when antler characteristics tend to be similar in a particular area it is more likely due to does than bucks since the does tend to stay put in an area to a greater extent than the bucks.



In other words, if you shoot a "cull buck" because he is 4 1/2 years old and is only a 7 pter, the genectic trait that causes this can still be passed on if the doe, whom is the mother of this buck, is still alive and/or her doe offspring is still breeding...now I have a headache.
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...


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#528597 - 12/14/07 11:41 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64982
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
Does it matter who contributes (mother/father)?, Does it matter what % is contributed from whom?, as long as it is. If you control(to some extant) the quality of whats being passed on, does it matter where the trait was passed from?(Mother,Father,Grandmothers cousins brother)



YES!!!

If a father is NOT passing on any of the expressed traits, who the father is and what his antler genetics are would contribute absolutely nothing to future generations.

Again, every mammal (and most living things) gets half of their genetic code from their father, and half from their mother. But that doesn't mean that every expressed genetic trait is a mix of the two. Some traits you only get from your mother's contributing code. Some you only get from your father's. Genetics are complicated beyond our wildest imagination.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528650 - 12/14/07 12:21 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Im working with data and findings by Dr. John Williams, a geneticist at Texas A&M University on Antler and Body Heritability(the potential of what individuals inherit from their parents). Twenty generations of known quality, age, genetic background and idividually identified deer where analyzed. Such factors as body weight and antler characteristics(including:number of points, spread, basal circumference, main beam length and weight) were closely analyzed through a series of sophisticated scientific tests. As in other research, heritabilty was measured from 0 to 1. The closer to the number 1 the more heritable the trait. The closer to 0 the less heritable the trait. As you can see from the chart three factors rate at .70 or above. They include Basel Circumference, Antler Weight, and Body Weight. Although all factors in question are highly heritable, these three are the highest. Based on considerable research, heriability estimates above .3 are considered to be practical for whitetail managment. Seems solid to me.
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#528656 - 12/14/07 12:36 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1800
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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HunterHaas,
I don't think anyone questions that many antler characteristics are inherited. The data you provide certainly shows this - but it does not address at all the question of whether those characteristics are primarily inherited maternally, paternally, or from both. That is the point I am trying to get across (apparently rather unsuccessfully).

A pretty good experiment would be to collect the data like you have shown over some period of time, then kill off or remove all the bucks from that area and bring in a new batch of bucks with "inferior" antlers, and collect the data again over several generations. To be truly controlled, it would have to be a high-fenced area to prevent any influx or efflux of does or bucks in the area, and conducted over a long enough time to minimize environmental variations ("good" growing years vs. "bad" growing years) and enough time for several generations and a good age distribution of the buck population. If I am understanding your viewpoint, HunterHaas, you believe that the vast majority of the new buck offspring will have inferior antlers. I happen to believe that the difference will not be as large between the "before" and "after" bucks, and may be insignificant.

Anybody willing to volunteer to foot the bill and provide the fenced land?


Edited by woodchuckc (12/14/07 01:10 PM)

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#528660 - 12/14/07 12:38 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1800
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter

In other words, if you shoot a "cull buck" because he is 4 1/2 years old and is only a 7 pter, the genectic trait that causes this can still be passed on if the doe, whom is the mother of this buck, is still alive and/or her doe offspring is still breeding...now I have a headache.


YES!

Sorry about the headache, but welcome to my world!

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#528685 - 12/14/07 01:08 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Well of course. But her doe offspring breeds with a good mature 10 pt. next year instead of another 4 1/2 7 pt doesnt that start to change the gene pool for the better. Will her off spring not improve by having the good 10pt breed her? Over the course of 3 or 4 years have you not improved the herd?
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#528699 - 12/14/07 01:41 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1800
Loc: Hickman County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
Well of course. But her doe offspring breeds with a good mature 10 pt. next year instead of another 4 1/2 7 pt doesnt that start to change the gene pool for the better. Will her off spring not improve by having the good 10pt breed her? Over the course of 3 or 4 years have you not improved the herd?


Not if the genetic determinants dominating the antler characteristics are carried by doe. Taking this to the extreme, if this is true it won't matter whether a 10 point or a mature spike breeds her.

Another thing that we haven't brought up in this discussion is that there may be other characteristics that we are selecting for (or selecting against) by "culling" smaller racked bucks. Essentially we have the potential for evolving our deer population in a direction that it wouldn't naturally go by selectively removing a subset of the population based on one characteristic (small antler size). Who knows if there is some desirable trait that small antlered bucks have that is absent (or minimal) in large antlered bucks? This is not a likely scenario to occur with a free ranging deer population over a statewide or regionwide basis, but could certainly be a factor in localized areas. For example (and this is only a theoretical example - I have no evidence and don't propose this as reality), what if bucks with small antlers due to their genetics have a natural resistance to EHD, and we selectively eliminate that segment of the population over many years?

At this point I don't think that we have enough solid scientific evidence to conclusively answer the question of who contributes most to the antler phenotype of bucks, or if it is an equal contribution from maternal and paternal genetics. I have taken the devil's advocate position somewhat and pointed out the reasons why the potential exists that the maternal contribution is dominant (as has BSK), but the bottom line is that we need more (and better controlled) data. Without that, from a scientific viewpoint "culling" small antlered bucks just eliminates another mouth to feed and leaves that much more nutritional resources for the deer that remain.

This has been a really good topic - I appreciate that we have been able to have a mature and even-tempered discussion. All too often discussions on controversial topics end up going down the toilet.

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#528706 - 12/14/07 01:45 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64982
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
HunterHaas,

UGA did a study where they took every imaginable antler measurement from all the male offspring of an individual father (sire). They then statistically analyzed these measurements against the father's measurements. In addition, they analyzed all of the sons' measurements against each other. They found no correlation between the father's measurements and his sons' measurements, or between all of his sons' measurements. In essence, there was no relationship, individually or in groups, of the sons' antler dimensions (or shape) to that of their father. In addition, there was no relationship between the measurements of the sons' antlers when compared against each other.

Then they looked at all of the sons of an individual mother (dam) and ran the same comparisons between all of the sons. In this comparison there WERE strong statistical relationships between the antler measurements (and shape) of all of the sons of a single mother.

This suggests (but does not prove) that bucks get the majority of their heritable expressed antler characterists from their mother and not their father.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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