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#528523 - 12/14/07 10:47 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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I just dont understand why Does carrying half the genes is an issue? From the pages of North American Whitetail: Bucks and Does each provide 50 percent of a male offspring's genetic potential for antler development. Even though you cannot see the potential a doe provides for antler development, by carrying on a program of removing inferior antlered bucks and leaving only the bigger antlered deer to do the breeding, genetics of does also improved in furture generations. A deer herd can be improved by removing bucks with inferior antlers and allowing those with larger antlers to do the breeding. Genetic research tells us that if traits that are highly heritable, in this case antler mass, are selected for, improvement can be seem in a relatively short period of time. That my friends is way I would not have a problem removing the six.
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#528549 - 12/14/07 11:08 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1767
Loc: Hickman County, TN

content Online
The problem is, the specific expression (called the phenotype) of many inherited traits are NOT contributed 50% from the female and 50% from the male. The most straightforward example is that any physical traits that are expressed from an X chromosome come EXCLUSIVELY from the mother of the male offspring. So if there are any significant parts of the complex equation of "antler genetics" carried by the X chromosome, the father of a male offspring will not contribute anything toward those.

It is actually a lot more complex than this, and even with traits for many other characteristics (in humans, anyway) that are not linked to the X chromosome there is a much stronger linkage to the maternal genetic contribution than the paternal one.

The problem is that we don't know at this time what the relative contributions to the antler phenotype are from the maternal versus paternal genetics. What we have is evidence based on observed patterns of inherited antler characteristics, which suggest that maternal genetic contribution is at least as important if not MORE important than the paternal contribution. Added into this is the dispersal behavior of bucks relative to does that BSK pointed out above - when antler characteristics tend to be similar in a particular area it is more likely due to does than bucks since the does tend to stay put in an area to a greater extent than the bucks.

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#528574 - 12/14/07 11:28 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Exactly woodchuckc. Thank you.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528578 - 12/14/07 11:31 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Does it matter who contributes (mother/father)?, Does it matter what % is contributed from whom?, as long as it is. If you control(to some extant) the quality of whats being passed on, does it matter where the trait was passed from?(Mother,Father,Grandmothers cousins brother)
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#528593 - 12/14/07 11:39 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17665
Loc: Branchville

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 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
The problem is, the specific expression (called the phenotype) of many inherited traits are NOT contributed 50% from the female and 50% from the male. The most straightforward example is that any physical traits that are expressed from an X chromosome come EXCLUSIVELY from the mother of the male offspring. So if there are any significant parts of the complex equation of "antler genetics" carried by the X chromosome, the father of a male offspring will not contribute anything toward those.

It is actually a lot more complex than this, and even with traits for many other characteristics (in humans, anyway) that are not linked to the X chromosome there is a much stronger linkage to the maternal genetic contribution than the paternal one.

The problem is that we don't know at this time what the relative contributions to the antler phenotype are from the maternal versus paternal genetics. What we have is evidence based on observed patterns of inherited antler characteristics, which suggest that maternal genetic contribution is at least as important if not MORE important than the paternal contribution. Added into this is the dispersal behavior of bucks relative to does that BSK pointed out above - when antler characteristics tend to be similar in a particular area it is more likely due to does than bucks since the does tend to stay put in an area to a greater extent than the bucks.



In other words, if you shoot a "cull buck" because he is 4 1/2 years old and is only a 7 pter, the genectic trait that causes this can still be passed on if the doe, whom is the mother of this buck, is still alive and/or her doe offspring is still breeding...now I have a headache.
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...


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#528597 - 12/14/07 11:41 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
Does it matter who contributes (mother/father)?, Does it matter what % is contributed from whom?, as long as it is. If you control(to some extant) the quality of whats being passed on, does it matter where the trait was passed from?(Mother,Father,Grandmothers cousins brother)



YES!!!

If a father is NOT passing on any of the expressed traits, who the father is and what his antler genetics are would contribute absolutely nothing to future generations.

Again, every mammal (and most living things) gets half of their genetic code from their father, and half from their mother. But that doesn't mean that every expressed genetic trait is a mix of the two. Some traits you only get from your mother's contributing code. Some you only get from your father's. Genetics are complicated beyond our wildest imagination.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528650 - 12/14/07 12:21 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Im working with data and findings by Dr. John Williams, a geneticist at Texas A&M University on Antler and Body Heritability(the potential of what individuals inherit from their parents). Twenty generations of known quality, age, genetic background and idividually identified deer where analyzed. Such factors as body weight and antler characteristics(including:number of points, spread, basal circumference, main beam length and weight) were closely analyzed through a series of sophisticated scientific tests. As in other research, heritabilty was measured from 0 to 1. The closer to the number 1 the more heritable the trait. The closer to 0 the less heritable the trait. As you can see from the chart three factors rate at .70 or above. They include Basel Circumference, Antler Weight, and Body Weight. Although all factors in question are highly heritable, these three are the highest. Based on considerable research, heriability estimates above .3 are considered to be practical for whitetail managment. Seems solid to me.
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#528656 - 12/14/07 12:36 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1767
Loc: Hickman County, TN

content Online
HunterHaas,
I don't think anyone questions that many antler characteristics are inherited. The data you provide certainly shows this - but it does not address at all the question of whether those characteristics are primarily inherited maternally, paternally, or from both. That is the point I am trying to get across (apparently rather unsuccessfully).

A pretty good experiment would be to collect the data like you have shown over some period of time, then kill off or remove all the bucks from that area and bring in a new batch of bucks with "inferior" antlers, and collect the data again over several generations. To be truly controlled, it would have to be a high-fenced area to prevent any influx or efflux of does or bucks in the area, and conducted over a long enough time to minimize environmental variations ("good" growing years vs. "bad" growing years) and enough time for several generations and a good age distribution of the buck population. If I am understanding your viewpoint, HunterHaas, you believe that the vast majority of the new buck offspring will have inferior antlers. I happen to believe that the difference will not be as large between the "before" and "after" bucks, and may be insignificant.

Anybody willing to volunteer to foot the bill and provide the fenced land?


Edited by woodchuckc (12/14/07 01:10 PM)

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#528660 - 12/14/07 12:38 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1767
Loc: Hickman County, TN

content Online
 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter

In other words, if you shoot a "cull buck" because he is 4 1/2 years old and is only a 7 pter, the genectic trait that causes this can still be passed on if the doe, whom is the mother of this buck, is still alive and/or her doe offspring is still breeding...now I have a headache.


YES!

Sorry about the headache, but welcome to my world!

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#528685 - 12/14/07 01:08 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Well of course. But her doe offspring breeds with a good mature 10 pt. next year instead of another 4 1/2 7 pt doesnt that start to change the gene pool for the better. Will her off spring not improve by having the good 10pt breed her? Over the course of 3 or 4 years have you not improved the herd?
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