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#527533 - 12/13/07 01:59 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

Offline
You know I apoligize to you guys. Somebody broke my car window and stole my bow couple days ago. I have been in a combative kind of mood ever since. I am new to posting but am not new to the site. Its pretty awsome to have knowledgeable people to ask questions and refrence(past topics and posts). And local people too! BSK you have been very helpful and professional!You have gone out of your way to answer my questions. I thank you very much! Anyway as of 1:33 my brand new PSE Brute is fine tuned and ready for the woods. TAS taking your advice and getting off this computer and going hunting. The saddle between these two hills is my Honey Hole, Thanks for the info, gone huntin, Nicholas Haas
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#527576 - 12/13/07 02:51 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

Offline
thanks Brian and Daniel, somehow that info has eluded me for a long time
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#527603 - 12/13/07 03:15 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HOOK]
bonekelektr
6 Point


Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 735
Loc: Sullivan Gardens

Offline
bang...thud....
_________________________
I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation.....

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#527615 - 12/13/07 03:28 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4257
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When it comes to the heritability of antler traits, does may be carrying many of those traits, just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness. There are many instances of male-expressed traits that are only passed on from mother to son. To date, the only antler-trait heritable studies done actually suggest almost all antler traits are passed on by the mother doe, but until someone actually deciphers the genetic code itself, we won't know for sure.


In the october issue of quality whitetails there is a article on deer breeders. Its part 2 of a 3 part article. On the buck specified in the article named bubba,.. he featured a forked left side g-2. This antler trait now has carried over into his son, grandson, and great grandson. Four generations with forked left side g-2,s all from the starting sire. Though each buck definately had distinct racks of their own,.. this 1 trait carried over. All i'm saying,.. its very possible in new studies that some antler traits may come from the male.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#527830 - 12/13/07 06:40 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4207
Loc: Franklin Tn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When non-typical antlers occur on both sides, it is most likely genetic. However, often a body injury can produce a non-typical antler on one side but not on the other. Sometimes that injury-induced non-typicalness on one side is repeated in later years and sometimes it isn't.

Basically, if you see a buck with one normally shaped antler, but a crazy antler on the other side, it is injury induced.


I have an interesting question regarding that BSK. I killed a huge 3 beamed deer back in the 99 season. A friend of mine found out that a local landowner had found a deer almost identical to mine 4-5 years before I harvested the deer I took. Both bucks had very symmetrical typical racks but on their left side they had a 3rd beam and were nearly identical. Now wouldn't that be genetics ?
_________________________


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#527890 - 12/13/07 07:23 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: 156p&y]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

Offline
possible, and more than likely due to its mother's bloodline

Edited by Chris Tripp (12/13/07 07:23 PM)

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#528206 - 12/14/07 05:56 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64982
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When it comes to the heritability of antler traits, does may be carrying many of those traits, just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness. There are many instances of male-expressed traits that are only passed on from mother to son. To date, the only antler-trait heritable studies done actually suggest almost all antler traits are passed on by the mother doe, but until someone actually deciphers the genetic code itself, we won't know for sure.


In the october issue of quality whitetails there is a article on deer breeders. Its part 2 of a 3 part article. On the buck specified in the article named bubba,.. he featured a forked left side g-2. This antler trait now has carried over into his son, grandson, and great grandson. Four generations with forked left side g-2,s all from the starting sire. Though each buck definately had distinct racks of their own,.. this 1 trait carried over. All i'm saying,.. its very possible in new studies that some antler traits may come from the male.


Good example deerchaser007. The Kerr "spike" study definitely proved that bucks pass on some expressed heritable genetics, but how much and exactly what characteristics is the question.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528210 - 12/14/07 05:59 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: 156p&y]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64982
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 156p&y
 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When non-typical antlers occur on both sides, it is most likely genetic. However, often a body injury can produce a non-typical antler on one side but not on the other. Sometimes that injury-induced non-typicalness on one side is repeated in later years and sometimes it isn't.

Basically, if you see a buck with one normally shaped antler, but a crazy antler on the other side, it is injury induced.


I have an interesting question regarding that BSK. I killed a huge 3 beamed deer back in the 99 season. A friend of mine found out that a local landowner had found a deer almost identical to mine 4-5 years before I harvested the deer I took. Both bucks had very symmetrical typical racks but on their left side they had a 3rd beam and were nearly identical. Now wouldn't that be genetics ?


It sure would, but a doe could have been passing that trait on to her sons.

I see bucks on a single property several years apart that obviously have the same genetic traits, but considering how much bucks disperse, the fact they are on the same property and several years apart (far enough that the first buck couldn't have sired the second buck because the first buck was dead before the second buck was sired), the traits must be being passed down by a local old doe.

Again, considering how much bucks disperse from their birth range, if a speciic antler trait keeps showing up over and over in a given location, the odds are much higher that that trait is being passed on over and over by a local doe or related does.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528523 - 12/14/07 10:47 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

Offline
I just dont understand why Does carrying half the genes is an issue? From the pages of North American Whitetail: Bucks and Does each provide 50 percent of a male offspring's genetic potential for antler development. Even though you cannot see the potential a doe provides for antler development, by carrying on a program of removing inferior antlered bucks and leaving only the bigger antlered deer to do the breeding, genetics of does also improved in furture generations. A deer herd can be improved by removing bucks with inferior antlers and allowing those with larger antlers to do the breeding. Genetic research tells us that if traits that are highly heritable, in this case antler mass, are selected for, improvement can be seem in a relatively short period of time. That my friends is way I would not have a problem removing the six.
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#528549 - 12/14/07 11:08 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1800
Loc: Hickman County, TN

Offline
The problem is, the specific expression (called the phenotype) of many inherited traits are NOT contributed 50% from the female and 50% from the male. The most straightforward example is that any physical traits that are expressed from an X chromosome come EXCLUSIVELY from the mother of the male offspring. So if there are any significant parts of the complex equation of "antler genetics" carried by the X chromosome, the father of a male offspring will not contribute anything toward those.

It is actually a lot more complex than this, and even with traits for many other characteristics (in humans, anyway) that are not linked to the X chromosome there is a much stronger linkage to the maternal genetic contribution than the paternal one.

The problem is that we don't know at this time what the relative contributions to the antler phenotype are from the maternal versus paternal genetics. What we have is evidence based on observed patterns of inherited antler characteristics, which suggest that maternal genetic contribution is at least as important if not MORE important than the paternal contribution. Added into this is the dispersal behavior of bucks relative to does that BSK pointed out above - when antler characteristics tend to be similar in a particular area it is more likely due to does than bucks since the does tend to stay put in an area to a greater extent than the bucks.

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