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#524409 - 12/11/07 07:17 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BSK
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And what are you going to say when a contagious disease breaks out in the area, and your feeding program spreads the disease very rapidly to all the deer?

And this isn't a "could happen" but a "will happen" event. It's just a matter of time. Go up to MI and see what feeding programs did for the spread of bovine TB.
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#524418 - 12/11/07 07:30 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Greg .]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Greg .
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

Bryan,

Please post these. While I have become convinced that some folks just do not want to hear it, others may listen.


Greg,

This lengthy document (around 60 pages) is the best synopsis of artificial feeding research I know of. I like this document because it reviews considerable research on both the positives and negatives of artificial feeding.

http://wildlife1.usask.ca/wildlife_health_topics/wildlife_baiting.pdf
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525107 - 12/11/07 04:49 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
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Dagnabbit Bryan...you stole my reference! \:D

See below...

 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Just so you know...

TWRA strongly discourages the supplemental feeding of all wildlife (see page 24 of the Hunting Guide).

Here's a reference for you regarding baiting practices: Artificial Feeding and Baiting of Wildlife


Edited by BigGameGuy (12/11/07 04:49 PM)
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#525129 - 12/11/07 05:04 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
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Don't leave a reference lying around me for long BGG... ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525211 - 12/11/07 06:18 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
And what are you going to say when a contagious disease breaks out in the area, and your feeding program spreads the disease very rapidly to all the deer?

And this isn't a "could happen" but a "will happen" event. It's just a matter of time. Go up to MI and see what feeding programs did for the spread of bovine TB.

now, are you saying that "will happen" as in every supplemental feeding program has had that happen or is this like the the illustration "given an infinite amount of time and a room full of monkeys, pens and paper; the complete works of shakespeare wil be produced"
seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it. im not saying that irresponsible feeding is not a problem, but there are programs, tailored to a specific habitat, which work for the overall health of the herd. i have not seen much scientific evidence against responsible baiting, and i personally believe that it helps my herd.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
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"The mountains are calling and I must go."
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#525408 - 12/11/07 08:13 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BigGameGuy
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 Originally Posted By: hard county
...seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it.


I would love to see the "difference of opinion" on the baiting/artificial feed issue between those wildlife professionals who "make their money" off baiting/hunting programs and those who are in charge of "what's good for the resource".

I think there is where you'll find the difference in support and opposition.
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#525472 - 12/11/07 08:44 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
hard county
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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
 Originally Posted By: hard county
...seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it.


I would love to see the "difference of opinion" on the baiting/artificial feed issue between those wildlife professionals who "make their money" off baiting/hunting programs and those who are in charge of "what's good for the resource".

I think there is where you'll find the difference in support and opposition.

very good point, bgg, but myself being a fellow state employee i can understand how much it pays to play it as safe as possible, sometimes at the expense of the overall health of the deer herd.
imagine this situation, a twra official has two options, either support baiting and on the far chance that an outbreak occurs he gets blamed, noone is going to mention that the herd may be better for this and supp. feeding will become the next year ehd scapegoat.
i also see your point that there is a lot of money being made by the feed companies and their opinions may be biased as well, but youve gotta believe somebody, right?
as for independent "experts" i have found differing opinions, so i am inclined to stay with my position that, "its good for some things, not for others."
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#525755 - 12/12/07 07:43 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
 Originally Posted By: hard county
...seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it.


I would love to see the "difference of opinion" on the baiting/artificial feed issue between those wildlife professionals who "make their money" off baiting/hunting programs and those who are in charge of "what's good for the resource".

I think there is where you'll find the difference in support and opposition.


EXACTLY! When I read "famous" biologists comments about disease transmission and supplemental feeding, or even things like deer farming for monster bucks--when those biologists make their money from those operations--I realize just how much money turns people into fools.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525760 - 12/12/07 07:49 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
BSK
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hard hunter,

After talking to geneticists that work with infectious diseases, I've come to realize that the outbreak of a known disease, or worse, a never before seen disease, is an absolute certaintly over time. And the more opportunities for transmission of disease that are provided, the more rapidly it will occur.

People may scoff at that, but when you look at diseases in humans or even deer for that matter, this is not uncommon. CWD is a new disease in deer that has developed in our life-time. The Southeast Cooperative Disease Study Group reported recently on two new diseases they were seeing in deer they could not yet quantify, and those diseases were being found only in areas where baiting was legal.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525794 - 12/12/07 08:21 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Supplemental feeding is definitely one of those risk versus reward debates. But I'll also freely admit there is a huge ethical and philosophical side to the debate as well.

I just finished rereading a speech Dr. Karl Miller gave at the "Shoot from the Hip" segment of last year's Southeast Deer Study Group Meeting that was reprinted in this month's issue of Quality Whitetails magazine. The discussion involved "keeping the fun in hunting." Dr. Miller was musing on "why we hunt" and he made some philosophical points that I totally agree with when it comes to the intensity of the management effort. Here are some excerpts of his talk:

"As managers and hunters engage in making more common what was once rare, we also increase the intensity of the management, and at some point on the management-intensity ladder we begin to artificialize the resource. At some point, the natural world becomes an artifical world, and at some point wildlife management becomes animal husbandry."


Once again, the age-old debate about "how much management is too much management." Obviously, this is an "ethical" question, and every individual will have a different answer for what intensity of management is "stepping over the line." Now by no means am I bashing the pursuit if large-antlered bucks. I do it myself every year and I'm proud as punch when I finally do take a large-antlered buck. My hat is off to those hunters that set their goals high, and accept nothing less. But what worries me is the move towards more and more artificial means of acheiving that goal. Again, I also freely admit that every hunter/manager is going to have a different view on where that ethical line is concerning "too much management." Ethics are unique to each person. But I agree absolutely with Dr. Miller when he said:

"...I view with sadness some current trends in maximizing trophy production at any cost."

"Hunters should be encouraged to become part of the management equation. But this must be constrained to some level of management short of animal husbandry."

Again, everyone is going to have a different view of what is "too much management." But for me, once you start feeding deer out of troughs, they are no longer wild animals; they have become cattle. I have no interest in hunting cows.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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