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#528699 - 12/14/07 01:41 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1767
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
Well of course. But her doe offspring breeds with a good mature 10 pt. next year instead of another 4 1/2 7 pt doesnt that start to change the gene pool for the better. Will her off spring not improve by having the good 10pt breed her? Over the course of 3 or 4 years have you not improved the herd?


Not if the genetic determinants dominating the antler characteristics are carried by doe. Taking this to the extreme, if this is true it won't matter whether a 10 point or a mature spike breeds her.

Another thing that we haven't brought up in this discussion is that there may be other characteristics that we are selecting for (or selecting against) by "culling" smaller racked bucks. Essentially we have the potential for evolving our deer population in a direction that it wouldn't naturally go by selectively removing a subset of the population based on one characteristic (small antler size). Who knows if there is some desirable trait that small antlered bucks have that is absent (or minimal) in large antlered bucks? This is not a likely scenario to occur with a free ranging deer population over a statewide or regionwide basis, but could certainly be a factor in localized areas. For example (and this is only a theoretical example - I have no evidence and don't propose this as reality), what if bucks with small antlers due to their genetics have a natural resistance to EHD, and we selectively eliminate that segment of the population over many years?

At this point I don't think that we have enough solid scientific evidence to conclusively answer the question of who contributes most to the antler phenotype of bucks, or if it is an equal contribution from maternal and paternal genetics. I have taken the devil's advocate position somewhat and pointed out the reasons why the potential exists that the maternal contribution is dominant (as has BSK), but the bottom line is that we need more (and better controlled) data. Without that, from a scientific viewpoint "culling" small antlered bucks just eliminates another mouth to feed and leaves that much more nutritional resources for the deer that remain.

This has been a really good topic - I appreciate that we have been able to have a mature and even-tempered discussion. All too often discussions on controversial topics end up going down the toilet.

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#528706 - 12/14/07 01:45 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64227
Loc: Nashville, TN

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HunterHaas,

UGA did a study where they took every imaginable antler measurement from all the male offspring of an individual father (sire). They then statistically analyzed these measurements against the father's measurements. In addition, they analyzed all of the sons' measurements against each other. They found no correlation between the father's measurements and his sons' measurements, or between all of his sons' measurements. In essence, there was no relationship, individually or in groups, of the sons' antler dimensions (or shape) to that of their father. In addition, there was no relationship between the measurements of the sons' antlers when compared against each other.

Then they looked at all of the sons of an individual mother (dam) and ran the same comparisons between all of the sons. In this comparison there WERE strong statistical relationships between the antler measurements (and shape) of all of the sons of a single mother.

This suggests (but does not prove) that bucks get the majority of their heritable expressed antler characterists from their mother and not their father.

_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528719 - 12/14/07 01:59 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64227
Loc: Nashville, TN

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And what woodchuckc was proposed--one seemingly unrelated genetic trait linked to another--is not at all that uncommon. Geneticists are finding more and more of these patterns.

In an enclosed environment (high-fence) you could very well be doing some unexpected harm by artificially attempting to select for or against a particular genetic trait.

It is now well established in deer DNA parentage studies (who is the father of individual deer in a herd), that Nature does not select for large antlers (large-antlered bucks do not produce more offspring than smaller antlered bucks). If Nature does not select for this, then it may be a questionable practice to do so artificially.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528730 - 12/14/07 02:06 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1767
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

UGA did the same study and when looking at just the heritability from the male (sire) line, the numbers came up near zero except for one trait, and I think it was beam length.

However, when looking at the numbers from the mother's (da) line, the numbers showed a very strong link.



Thanks for posting that, BSK. I thought I remembered you posting some information along those lines before, but I didn't have a clear enough recollection of it to risk misquoting it. That is precisely the type of data that addresses this question. Without knowing all the parameters of the data collection in that study, it seems to me to be pretty strong evidence for a strong maternal linkage. I'm sure that you know better than me how hard it is to control population studies. It is hard enough to minimize biases and uncontrolled variables in the laboratory situations I work in, let alone in a situation like this with animals in an uncontrolled environment.

Someday just for grins I'd like to sit down over a brewski or two and tell you about some adventures I had doing studies on seasonal metabolic rates in big and little brown bats I did as a graduate student in the copper mines of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan - I think you might get a kick out of it.

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#528762 - 12/14/07 02:29 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64227
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
Someday just for grins I'd like to sit down over a brewski or two and tell you about some adventures I had doing studies on seasonal metabolic rates in big and little brown bats I did as a graduate student in the copper mines of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan - I think you might get a kick out of it.


That would be interesting! But can I bring along my sister as an "interpreter?" That's where I get my "genetics" knowledge from. She is a Vanderbilt PhD in genetics (microbiology) and worked on the Human Genome Project. She is now a research coordinator for a drug company working on genetically oriented cancer drugs.

She could share her stories of some of her college genetics work where she had to go around and pick up road-killed mice in Nebraska!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#529218 - 12/14/07 09:56 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Stick'n'String
10 Point


Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 2686
Loc: Nashville

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Bryan,

Maybe you remember the details a little better than I about the research Dr. Hellickson did at the SEDSGM in Baton Rouge two years ago. If I remember correctly they culled EVERY spike and buck that was >4.5 and had 8 points or less over several years in hopes of increasing B&C scores. However, I think the results either showed no significant improvement or actually negative results.

In a high fence situation I could see the benefit of a culling program as you can control dispersal and herd numbers. However, I still theink the primary benefits would be due to food availability.

In a free range herd there are far too many other variables that need to be addressed before genetics should be even a thought and even then I doubt you'd be able to change much. I'd recommend everyone read BSK's article "Plugging the Lowest Hole in The Bucket" its a good one ;\)
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#529360 - 12/15/07 06:34 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Stick'n'String]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64227
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Mickey's research proved--unequivocally in my mind--that culling will not work in a free-ranging herd.

Now I think inside a high fence it may produce improvements, but in a free-ranging herd, no.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#529945 - 12/15/07 10:43 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Tiny
16 Point


Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 17732
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Just curious, which QDMers would shoot this buck and which wouldn't? And by the way, he's just a big 6-pointer.



Would depend on the regs or the rules were I was hunting at,but BANG most likely.

Now that I went and read through all of this one,BANG on the second without question.


Edited by Tiny (12/15/07 11:06 PM)
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#532059 - 12/18/07 07:09 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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What are the harvest rules for chaney lake?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#532253 - 12/18/07 09:47 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



chaney lake current rules are as follows.
juvenile hunter who has never tagged a deer, this means even on another piece of property can kill anything that they want on their first tag. then they play with the big boys.

our buck rule is that a buck must have at least 3 points on one side and the brow tine does not count as a point.

we try to harvest 2-3 does per buck.

we know that the above is not on the high end of QDM. at the same time i know that most of the members of this club have to have some exact guideline to go by. this so far has worked the best for us.

kill for current season
11 bucks all 8 point or better largest 8 point 149 BC gross
200 lb live wt no teeth

smallest 8 point 89 BC gross

20 does as of 12/15/07

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