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#526158 - 12/12/07 12:53 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
CopperHead77
12 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 6756
Loc: Hickman Co.

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I prob wouldn't shoot the first one even though he does appear to be an older buck..the second one WOW!
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#526314 - 12/12/07 03:25 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: CopperHead77]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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HunterHaas,

Not enough is yet known about how the genetics of antlers work to say anything definitive about heritability of antler traits. However, I think the data is now solid enough to say definitively that culling smaller antlered bucks does more harm than good.
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#526323 - 12/12/07 03:32 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19311
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . the data is now solid enough to say definitively that culling smaller antlered bucks does more harm than good.
Simply worth repeating,
and I agree,
although I think it makes more sense to be killing smaller antlered mature bucks while letting larger antlered younger bucks walk.

And, IMO, the word "cull" shouldn't even be in the vocabulary when discussing bucks any younger than 4 1/2.

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#526462 - 12/12/07 05:04 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Worm
18 Point


Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 21700
Loc: Huntingdon, Tn

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BSK you sent me the pic of the second buck the day you got the film. I took him out the very next day so if you are hunting him come over to the house and I will show you the rack. I think David was holding the light. \:D

That is a super buck. Wonder how many times he smelled you on a trail?
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#526482 - 12/12/07 05:18 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Wes Parrish]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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I think what I'm driving at here is if he would have been a 8 or 10 pt basket rack i would have let him walk. I dont think he'd ever get that big, there is plenty of deer in the area.I have personally seen several 6's get big and stay 6's. Why not take him. I'd consider him a managment buck. Im not talking about shooting every spike down. I have only taken 1 buck and 1 doe this year. As for the genetics of antlers. Do the deer on your hunting properties not look similar? The deer on every property I have ever hunted tend to show many of the same features year in and year out. A kicker off the left brow, tall and thin, or wide and heavy? Symetrical or non typical? Similar styles. I Had a horriable time with one antlered deer for 3 or 4 seasons on a farm. You telling me they dont pass this on? I don't need a scientist to tell me they do. I certainly don't think you would be hurting to much by shooting the six. You asked how many QDM'ers would shoot him. I would shoot him. As a general rule I say let the small stuff walk. Thats Basic QDM. But after doing that for years ya'll, I think you could take your farm(place you hunt)to another level. If I have X amount of area and X amount of bucks need to be taken from that area? That six is a strong candidate after the wallhangers.
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#526507 - 12/12/07 05:35 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

Offline
HunterHaas... I don't think you know what kind of QDMers your tying to preach to, what you are describing is TDM (trophy deer management) totally different philosophies.
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#526511 - 12/12/07 05:37 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
HunterHaas,

When it comes to the heritability of antler traits, does may be carrying many of those traits, just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness. There are many instances of male-expressed traits that are only passed on from mother to son. To date, the only antler-trait heritable studies done actually suggest almost all antler traits are passed on by the mother doe, but until someone actually deciphers the genetic code itself, we won't know for sure.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#526813 - 12/12/07 08:40 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Quote:
just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness


old wives tale bro. not true at all. but i do agree with your point, the does contribute just as much to her sons rack as the father.

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#526858 - 12/12/07 09:16 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
I think what I'm driving at here is if he would have been a 8 or 10 pt basket rack i would have let him walk. I dont think he'd ever get that big, there is plenty of deer in the area.I have personally seen several 6's get big and stay 6's. Why not take him. I'd consider him a managment buck. Im not talking about shooting every spike down. I have only taken 1 buck and 1 doe this year. As for the genetics of antlers. Do the deer on your hunting properties not look similar? The deer on every property I have ever hunted tend to show many of the same features year in and year out. A kicker off the left brow, tall and thin, or wide and heavy? Symetrical or non typical? Similar styles. I Had a horriable time with one antlered deer for 3 or 4 seasons on a farm. You telling me they dont pass this on? I don't need a scientist to tell me they do. I certainly don't think you would be hurting to much by shooting the six. You asked how many QDM'ers would shoot him. I would shoot him. As a general rule I say let the small stuff walk. Thats Basic QDM. But after doing that for years ya'll, I think you could take your farm(place you hunt)to another level. If I have X amount of area and X amount of bucks need to be taken from that area? That six is a strong candidate after the wallhangers.


I guess it is all about points for you. Two deer the same age, one is a basket 8, and the other is a nice 6 point and you cull the 6 and let the basket walk? I personally don't believe in culling bucks unless they are really old and going down hill but that is not a cull to me it is a true trophy. So I guess I don't believe in culling at all. But for me, a huge symetrical 8 pointer (5.5 year old) is the most beautiful rack and very well could have been a big 6 at 3.5 years. That first deer of BSK's is not a cull buck but actually a pretty good deer for his age in TN. Yeah he may never get beyond 8 points or even 6 but I bet when he is 5.5 years he will have as much mass as that 3.5 year old basket 8 or 10 that you would have let walk. It's all about the age structure, that's QDM.
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#526954 - 12/12/07 10:25 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

Offline
Wow there Chris Tripp, Preach to? Answered the question, would you shoot this deer, honestly and explained why? Calm down big fella. Your a sensitive QDMer. That is trophy managment talk though I suppose. I see what ya'll mean about the does contributing. BSK and others what about typical vs. non typical. Is this genetic at all? I've heard its genetic, i've heard it results from injury to the rack in velvet, from body injury, i've heard several things. What is true? What makes one rack grow typical 10 and another grow like a bush? You state almost all antler traits may be passed on by the mother doe. Are there some traits we know are passed on by the male? Can someone give me a genetic breakdown? Is there useful data? What do we know for sure so i can incorperate it into my QDM program. I apoligize for straying from your main topic BSK. Should I start a new post? Im a newbie to the message boards and do not want to practice bad forum edicate.
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