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#523850 - 12/10/07 06:05 PM Shooter?
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Just curious, which QDMers would shoot this buck and which wouldn't? And by the way, he's just a big 6-pointer.

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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#523851 - 12/10/07 06:08 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
stirrat
8 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1047
Loc: savannah

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negative ghostrider
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#523857 - 12/10/07 06:13 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25479
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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not me ,I would let him go and hope he gets bigger,but I wouldnt stop my son from shooting him
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#523869 - 12/10/07 06:22 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Football Hunter]
bf4cm28
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 386
Loc: wi

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Let him go! But if it was my sons first buck I would let him choose!
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#523907 - 12/10/07 06:42 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: bf4cm28]
username
10 Point


Registered: 05/08/02
Posts: 4103
Loc: Williamson County

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I wouldnt but thats not to say he is not a trophy. He looks like a rut stressed 3 1/2 and he most likely wont get a lot bigger antler wise than he is now. Thats the kind of deer that I let walk and feel good about leaving an older age buck in the herd to do his part socially. Harvesting him would be quite an accomplishment for anyone though.

I walked what I think was a fully mature six point last year that was around 20" wide and heavy mass. He taught me that I'm not just a "older age buck hunter" I got some great video of him and it was one of only a couple instances in my life that I actually got to watch a "Mature" deer interact with other deer and witness the behavior differences in them compared to say a 3 1/2 year old. I'll admit it I like the big horns.

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#523916 - 12/10/07 06:47 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: username]
muddyboots
12 Point


Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 7079
Loc: savannah, tn., usa

content Online
Id shoot him
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Let em go and let em grow!
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#523922 - 12/10/07 06:50 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: muddyboots]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25479
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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I agree with username
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You wont know,if you dont go!


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#523928 - 12/10/07 06:56 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
In_my_sights
6 Point


Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Macon,Davidson, and anywhere e...

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No.
He looks to be a 2.5 yr old with a average rack. But I'm still learning and probably don't have 20 pics of him. \:D
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#523931 - 12/10/07 06:59 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: In_my_sights]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15754
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

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Passed on several just like him this season.
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Everytime I see you....there you are.

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#523932 - 12/10/07 07:00 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: In_my_sights]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15754
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

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Passed on several just like him this season.
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Everytime I see you....there you are.

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#523935 - 12/10/07 07:01 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: In_my_sights]
Bigg'un4214
10 Point


Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 2602
Loc: east tn

content Online
Can we say deer down? But I'm a deer hunter not a QDMer.

Edited by Bigg'un4214 (12/10/07 07:03 PM)
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Tennessee roots over 200 years deep and growing.....

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#523942 - 12/10/07 07:07 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Bigg'un4214]
RUGER Administrator
Bambi Killa
Non-Typical


Registered: 11/19/99
Posts: 4105500
Loc: TN

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Had one just a little wider than him but not quite as much mass walk by me at 75 yards at Ballard this year.
He got a pass.
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#523949 - 12/10/07 07:13 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: RUGER]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17871
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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I've seen a sack full of 2.5-3.5 year old bucks just like him and 8 pointers scoring up to 125 this year. They all got a pass. Make him 3.5 and a 130+ish and we'll talk.
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#523962 - 12/10/07 07:24 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Mike Belt]
richmanbarbeque
16 Point


Registered: 07/17/03
Posts: 12778
Loc: Middle, Tn

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Shoot. My gut feeling is he is older than he may appear.

Good post username.

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#523978 - 12/10/07 07:36 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
TN RDG RNR
12 Point


Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 7066
Loc: Rhea County

content Online
Id have to take him out of the gene pool. He looks to have a sway back, pronounced brisket and more than normal gray around the eyes. He is a little on the thin side could be a number of reasons. 4.5
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#524020 - 12/10/07 08:02 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TN RDG RNR]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17884
Loc: Branchville

content Online
Even though he is a mature deer I would let him walk. I don't have any buck tags left. If I had a tag, I would hate to burn a tag on him, but I would because I think it would be the right thing to do from a management stand piont.
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#524025 - 12/10/07 08:05 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16917
Loc: Allardt, TN

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I would shoot him, on the properties I do QDM, Im managing for 2.5 yr olds or better and he meets that for sure.
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#524032 - 12/10/07 08:09 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: smstone22]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17884
Loc: Branchville

content Online
that deer is 4 1/2 plus
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...


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#524059 - 12/10/07 08:27 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
pass-thru
10 Point


Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 3611
Loc: va beach

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I'd shoot him in a heartbeat.

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#524061 - 12/10/07 08:30 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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I passed on a 2.5 eight pointer last week that was as wide and had 8" G-2's. I am sure I am wrong in my assumption but without my own set of pics to study and he came by and all I had was that look of him...he would get a pass. I had rather second guess myself after a buck is gone than kick myself in the butt while loading him. This old six I have pics of for some time and he will drop given the chance.
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#524085 - 12/10/07 08:45 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Dang, that's an old 6-point TAS!!!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#524118 - 12/10/07 08:58 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Dang, that's an old 6-point TAS!!!


He has gone completely nocturnal since hunting season started.
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#524126 - 12/10/07 09:01 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17884
Loc: Branchville

content Online
Jw-06 killed the oldest 6 pter I know of. BSK said he was at least 7 1/2
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...


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#524130 - 12/10/07 09:01 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17884
Loc: Branchville

content Online
how old is this deer BSK?
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...


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#524135 - 12/10/07 09:02 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17884
Loc: Branchville

content Online
TAs, i think your deer is a 7 pter. He looks to have 4 on his right side.
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...


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#524163 - 12/10/07 09:12 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Now who would shoot this litle one?



HA!! Just had to throw that picture out there again. I think that's my favorite trail-cam picture of all time.

What a stud that buck was...
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#524177 - 12/10/07 09:18 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Cache
4 Point


Registered: 07/30/06
Posts: 473
Loc: Collierville

content Online
That pic almost looks like a painting...
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#524185 - 12/10/07 09:20 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19267
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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I'm trying not to shoot any bucks I believe younger than 4 1/2, so I would give your 6-pointer at least another year.

But now that older buck posted, I'd probably have to give him a ride.

 Originally Posted By: BSK

What a stud that buck was...

Actually, that Peterson fellow tells me they pass up bucks like that all the time over at President's Island. ;\)
Just an 8-pointer.

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#524189 - 12/10/07 09:22 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter
TAs, i think your deer is a 7 pter. He looks to have 4 on his right side.


Naw HH, it's just the pic. I have a bunch of pics of him (night pics) when he was in velvet. Very few now!
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To truly appreciate deer hunting you have to get off the computer and GO!

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#524201 - 12/10/07 09:32 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
username
10 Point


Registered: 05/08/02
Posts: 4103
Loc: Williamson County

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BSK, I'd have to take the 2nd buck you posted home with me. Whoa!

Lets see.... daylight picture..... appears to be working a scrape... so I know season is open..... hmmmm.... must be bow season? If not, Where were ya?! \:\)

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#524206 - 12/10/07 09:37 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: username]
kholmes
4 Point


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Nashville

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BANG and BANG. Antlers don't make them any smarter. They both look to be at least 3.5, good bucks regardless of headgear.

Edited by kholmes (12/10/07 09:40 PM)
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#524213 - 12/10/07 09:40 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
Daddybucktn
4 Point


Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 315
Loc: Clinton Tn, USA

Offline
The 1st one walks.
The 2nd one BAAM!
Sorry...Its been a tough year!

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#524216 - 12/10/07 09:43 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: kholmes]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10527
Loc: Warren Co

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First deer almost looks like 2 photos put together.
Front half from shoulders forward... BANG! Looks like a geezer 3.5+

From the shoulder back... uh... not sure. Looks more like a healthy 2.5yr old.
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#524243 - 12/10/07 10:06 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: fishboy1]
Oak
Spike


Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Lawrence Cty

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BSK ... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these could be the same deer (only a few years difference in the pictures). Just judging by the hook on the left main beam though.

I think I remember you posting the second pic a few years ago...good looking buck.

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#524262 - 12/10/07 10:20 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HOOK]
Bertman
16 Point


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 18698
Loc: TREESTAND

Offline
no
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#524270 - 12/10/07 10:27 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Bertman]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16917
Loc: Allardt, TN

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there again, managing for 2.5 yr olds so yes bang lol
_________________________
-QDM=Better Deer, Better Deer Hunting
-Let Him Go, So He Can Grow

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#524338 - 12/11/07 01:17 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: smstone22]
TeamMainStreet
8 Point


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 2021
Loc: Union County,Tn

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If ive got a buck tag left and Im sure I'll have no problem with that, that deer is dead or scared outta his mind cause that right there is shooter material in my neck of the woods. The second deer I would probably be better off passing on because i'd just be mad at myself for missing him. LOL
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#524376 - 12/11/07 06:01 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: TeamMainStreet]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 17871
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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BAM!
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#524411 - 12/11/07 07:21 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Mike Belt]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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The first buck is 3 1/2 and the second 4 1/2.

If it was my first buck of the season, I might give the 1st buck a pass, but he's a 3 1/2 year-old buck, and as a second buck of the year (not wanting to take a "good one" away from one of my hunting partners if they haven't made a kill yet) I'ld probably shoot him in a heart-beat.

The 2nd buck,... I'ld wet myself to take that one!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525141 - 12/11/07 05:19 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



first one, pass. second one, faint.
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#525150 - 12/11/07 05:28 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 8306
Loc: Collierville,TN.

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The 6 point looks to be 3 1/2 years old, so I would let him pass until next season. In my book, once a buck reaches 4 1/2 or older I consider him a trophy no matter what he scores. Now if I am Paying $4000.00 or $5000.00 for an out of state trophy hunt, then I am waiting for a buck that will score a minimum of 150 inches.

Edited by W.Seay (12/11/07 05:37 PM)
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#525156 - 12/11/07 05:31 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 8306
Loc: Collierville,TN.

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Wow! That second buck looks like he is a 5 1/2 year old, I would not hesitate to kill him! Did anyone ever get him?

Edited by W.Seay (12/11/07 05:43 PM)
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To one with faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.

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#525176 - 12/11/07 05:44 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: W.Seay]
CBU93 Moderator
"sheetrock"
14 Point


Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 8465
Loc: Germantown, TN

Offline
BSK,
Is that your "mighty midget" buck that was killed a few years ago???

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#525219 - 12/11/07 06:24 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: CBU93]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

Offline
I'd kill either........
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#525305 - 12/11/07 07:17 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Camp
12 Point


Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 5917
Loc: Rutherford County / Mid TN

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Looking at his face he still has a "young" appearance and his stomach hasn't started sagging any yet. I'd say you were right to passs on him based on age (2.5-3.5). (If that's what you chose) Another year or 2 and he might be a big 8 or he may just have a heavier massed 6. My son shot a massive 4 point with a 17' spread he thought was 6 point that was aged by TWRA at 1.5 years. It looked similar without the brow tines. I would never have shot it but it was my sons largest yet at that time so good for the young hunter. I suppose all is relative. If you haven't gotten anything that big yet, nothing wrong with taking him now, he's still very nice, but if you have patience and are willing to accept that you may never get another shot at him, you might have an opportunity at him when he's even bigger.
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#525312 - 12/11/07 07:23 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Camp]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15754
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

Offline
HOW DARE THUS TEMPT ME WITH THINE SECOND PHOTO!!!!
Thous't maketh me druel like a slobbering fool!

YES! YES! I sayest to thee! The beast would die!!!
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#525657 - 12/12/07 12:40 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
BoonerBucks
8 Point


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 1103
Loc: Blount co, Tn

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If I could, I would!
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#525746 - 12/12/07 07:26 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: CBU93]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: CBU93
BSK,
Is that your "mighty midget" buck that was killed a few years ago???


No, that 3 1/2 year-old 6-point is a buck from this year, and the 4 1/2 year-old is a buck from 2003 that we never saw. he was a rut range-shifter. He showed up during the rut, we photographed him a couple of times over 2 weeks of the peak of the rut, and then he was gone. But man, he's a good one! That will keep you hunting!

Here's the 6-pointer in the summer. Just goes to show how much bucks change in body conformation from the summer to the rut:

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525942 - 12/12/07 10:03 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

Offline
Brian, he looks 3.5, maybe 4.5, definately mature
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#526048 - 12/12/07 11:29 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HOOK]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

Offline
I'd take(or put an appreciative friend on him and save the tag) the first one out of the gene pool. No room for "big six's" on the farm. If he had gone 8 or 10 and been on the small side he would get a pass to grow. I dont think he has the genetics to go big. I want the fork horns not the spikes, the 8's not the six's out there swimming in the gene pool. I have never seen a six grow into a monster. Maybe its just the ridge I hunt? The Hanson Buck could have been a six at one point for all I know. My honey hole is almost ten years into a strict qdm program, and I get to hunt about every day of the season, so I know my situation is more improved than most. Its all relative to where your hunting I suppose. It's true he will get bigger, but I dont like the six's on the farms I chase the heavy horn. They are more harm than good in the long run. I have seen several 6's just go on to be old big 6's? Not much development between seasons. I would of course try to put a arrow through the big boy. They would both get the muzzy from HunterHaas. Just for diffrent reasons. Both nice deer.
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#526158 - 12/12/07 12:53 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
CopperHead77
12 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 6756
Loc: Hickman Co.

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I prob wouldn't shoot the first one even though he does appear to be an older buck..the second one WOW!
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#526314 - 12/12/07 03:25 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: CopperHead77]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
HunterHaas,

Not enough is yet known about how the genetics of antlers work to say anything definitive about heritability of antler traits. However, I think the data is now solid enough to say definitively that culling smaller antlered bucks does more harm than good.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#526323 - 12/12/07 03:32 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19267
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . the data is now solid enough to say definitively that culling smaller antlered bucks does more harm than good.
Simply worth repeating,
and I agree,
although I think it makes more sense to be killing smaller antlered mature bucks while letting larger antlered younger bucks walk.

And, IMO, the word "cull" shouldn't even be in the vocabulary when discussing bucks any younger than 4 1/2.

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#526462 - 12/12/07 05:04 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Worm
18 Point


Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 21700
Loc: Huntingdon, Tn

Offline
BSK you sent me the pic of the second buck the day you got the film. I took him out the very next day so if you are hunting him come over to the house and I will show you the rack. I think David was holding the light. \:D

That is a super buck. Wonder how many times he smelled you on a trail?
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#526482 - 12/12/07 05:18 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Wes Parrish]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

Offline
I think what I'm driving at here is if he would have been a 8 or 10 pt basket rack i would have let him walk. I dont think he'd ever get that big, there is plenty of deer in the area.I have personally seen several 6's get big and stay 6's. Why not take him. I'd consider him a managment buck. Im not talking about shooting every spike down. I have only taken 1 buck and 1 doe this year. As for the genetics of antlers. Do the deer on your hunting properties not look similar? The deer on every property I have ever hunted tend to show many of the same features year in and year out. A kicker off the left brow, tall and thin, or wide and heavy? Symetrical or non typical? Similar styles. I Had a horriable time with one antlered deer for 3 or 4 seasons on a farm. You telling me they dont pass this on? I don't need a scientist to tell me they do. I certainly don't think you would be hurting to much by shooting the six. You asked how many QDM'ers would shoot him. I would shoot him. As a general rule I say let the small stuff walk. Thats Basic QDM. But after doing that for years ya'll, I think you could take your farm(place you hunt)to another level. If I have X amount of area and X amount of bucks need to be taken from that area? That six is a strong candidate after the wallhangers.
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#526507 - 12/12/07 05:35 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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HunterHaas... I don't think you know what kind of QDMers your tying to preach to, what you are describing is TDM (trophy deer management) totally different philosophies.
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#526511 - 12/12/07 05:37 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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HunterHaas,

When it comes to the heritability of antler traits, does may be carrying many of those traits, just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness. There are many instances of male-expressed traits that are only passed on from mother to son. To date, the only antler-trait heritable studies done actually suggest almost all antler traits are passed on by the mother doe, but until someone actually deciphers the genetic code itself, we won't know for sure.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#526813 - 12/12/07 08:40 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



 Quote:
just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness


old wives tale bro. not true at all. but i do agree with your point, the does contribute just as much to her sons rack as the father.

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#526858 - 12/12/07 09:16 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
I think what I'm driving at here is if he would have been a 8 or 10 pt basket rack i would have let him walk. I dont think he'd ever get that big, there is plenty of deer in the area.I have personally seen several 6's get big and stay 6's. Why not take him. I'd consider him a managment buck. Im not talking about shooting every spike down. I have only taken 1 buck and 1 doe this year. As for the genetics of antlers. Do the deer on your hunting properties not look similar? The deer on every property I have ever hunted tend to show many of the same features year in and year out. A kicker off the left brow, tall and thin, or wide and heavy? Symetrical or non typical? Similar styles. I Had a horriable time with one antlered deer for 3 or 4 seasons on a farm. You telling me they dont pass this on? I don't need a scientist to tell me they do. I certainly don't think you would be hurting to much by shooting the six. You asked how many QDM'ers would shoot him. I would shoot him. As a general rule I say let the small stuff walk. Thats Basic QDM. But after doing that for years ya'll, I think you could take your farm(place you hunt)to another level. If I have X amount of area and X amount of bucks need to be taken from that area? That six is a strong candidate after the wallhangers.


I guess it is all about points for you. Two deer the same age, one is a basket 8, and the other is a nice 6 point and you cull the 6 and let the basket walk? I personally don't believe in culling bucks unless they are really old and going down hill but that is not a cull to me it is a true trophy. So I guess I don't believe in culling at all. But for me, a huge symetrical 8 pointer (5.5 year old) is the most beautiful rack and very well could have been a big 6 at 3.5 years. That first deer of BSK's is not a cull buck but actually a pretty good deer for his age in TN. Yeah he may never get beyond 8 points or even 6 but I bet when he is 5.5 years he will have as much mass as that 3.5 year old basket 8 or 10 that you would have let walk. It's all about the age structure, that's QDM.
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#526954 - 12/12/07 10:25 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Wow there Chris Tripp, Preach to? Answered the question, would you shoot this deer, honestly and explained why? Calm down big fella. Your a sensitive QDMer. That is trophy managment talk though I suppose. I see what ya'll mean about the does contributing. BSK and others what about typical vs. non typical. Is this genetic at all? I've heard its genetic, i've heard it results from injury to the rack in velvet, from body injury, i've heard several things. What is true? What makes one rack grow typical 10 and another grow like a bush? You state almost all antler traits may be passed on by the mother doe. Are there some traits we know are passed on by the male? Can someone give me a genetic breakdown? Is there useful data? What do we know for sure so i can incorperate it into my QDM program. I apoligize for straying from your main topic BSK. Should I start a new post? Im a newbie to the message boards and do not want to practice bad forum edicate.
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#526957 - 12/12/07 10:29 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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And what kind of mass does the 8 or 10 pt have when he is 5.5?
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#526969 - 12/12/07 10:51 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
And what kind of mass does the 8 or 10 pt have when he is 5.5?


\:\) What I meant is points are not everything. Total bone on the 3.5 yr 6 pointer that BSK posted could easily surpass a basket rack. Many factors (amount of mast, rut stress before hard winter, etc.) could play into what the 6 point or basket 8 or 10 would look like in two years. It could also have played into that 6 point having the rack he had when the picture was taken.

This buck was a 6 point (about like the one BSK posted) the year before. I have other pics that show his left ear is missing the bottom portion. I don't know about you but if he would have been "culled" wouldn't that been a shame?

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#526975 - 12/12/07 10:55 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HOOK]
cole
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 376
Loc: maryville

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take him!!!!!!!!!!!!!! \:\)
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#527007 - 12/13/07 01:22 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: cole]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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I agree! That would have been a shame. Nice deer. Really nice deer! Your six turned into a enormous 8! They only get bigger with time I cant argue that. Letting them walk is always the safe bet. I like the "big six" as a managment deer though. Hes good enough to be a tn trophy, and I would not lose any sleep at night wondering what hed be like next year. Or that was the case before TAS broke out the trail pics.
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#527143 - 12/13/07 07:47 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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HunterHaas,

When non-typical antlers occur on both sides, it is most likely genetic. However, often a body injury can produce a non-typical antler on one side but not on the other. Sometimes that injury-induced non-typicalness on one side is repeated in later years and sometimes it isn't.

Basically, if you see a buck with one normally shaped antler, but a crazy antler on the other side, it is injury induced.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527152 - 12/13/07 07:54 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerlawyer
 Quote:
just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness


old wives tale bro. not true at all.


The primary heriditary form of male-pattern baldness is carried on the X chromosome. You can't get those from your father. However, there ARE other causes for male pattern baldness.


 Quote:
but i do agree with your point, the does contribute just as much to her sons rack as the father.


Actually, in the best study I know of, they could find no relationship between the antler characteristics of the sire buck's antlers and the antlers of his male offspring. However, there was strong correlations between all male offspring of the same mother dam. This suggest doe may carry the majority of antler trait characteristics.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#527183 - 12/13/07 08:12 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
I agree! That would have been a shame. Nice deer. Really nice deer! Your six turned into a enormous 8! They only get bigger with time I cant argue that. Letting them walk is always the safe bet. I like the "big six" as a managment deer though. Hes good enough to be a tn trophy, and I would not lose any sleep at night wondering what hed be like next year. Or that was the case before TAS broke out the trail pics.


HH,

He would not be considered a management deer on my property and I would not shoot him BUT if anyone else shot him they would get my sincere congratulations and help dragging him out. \:\)
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#527214 - 12/13/07 08:29 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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Hey, no "right" or "wrong" answer on "would you shoot him," just curious how others feel. Some hunters/managers shoot purely for age, others shoot for a combination of age and antler score. To each their own...
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527289 - 12/13/07 09:31 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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Brian, on Dismal and the other properties we own or manage, we are basing harvest on age factors, so yes the 6 would die.
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#527309 - 12/13/07 09:57 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Stick'n'String
10 Point


Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 2689
Loc: Nashville

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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
As a general rule I say let the small stuff walk. Thats Basic QDM.


That is where you are wrong. Basic QDM is let the young ones walk.
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#527328 - 12/13/07 10:28 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Stick'n'String]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Stick'n'String
 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
As a general rule I say let the small stuff walk. Thats Basic QDM.


That is where you are wrong. Basic QDM is let the young ones walk.


Good catch S'n'S!

Not all small-antler bucks are young. Two years ago we took a 4 1/2 year-old buck from my property that was a fork-horn grossing 71 3/8.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527359 - 12/13/07 11:04 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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hey S'N'S... is it you I need to contact for some educational material to hand out when recruiting a co-op in my area? Or if I want to form a branch, do I contact you for that info?
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#527372 - 12/13/07 11:13 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Chris Tripp]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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This deer was 6.5 years old.... back picture to display body size, but you can see the rack size, weight was 205 dressed.

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#527374 - 12/13/07 11:15 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Chris Tripp]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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 Originally Posted By: Chris Tripp
hey S'N'S... is it you I need to contact for some educational material to hand out when recruiting a co-op in my area? Or if I want to form a branch, do I contact you for that info?


I would like to know that also. I gave surrounding property owners QDMA memberships for Christmas.
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#527402 - 12/13/07 11:35 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Jeeezzz! You have to be very careful when you chose your words here dont you? Small Stuff(who said small antlered?), Young Ones? Thats what I mean bud! Same thing. Just saying it rather casualy you know. "Let the small stuff walk". Try saying it to yourself outloud. Fun wasnt it. I didnt make it up. I've heard it before. And now look, I understand how to age a deer(jawbone,body language, the build of the body,trail pics from years past,etc.)I dont age my deer by there antlers, for the reason BSK mentioned above. Sometimes the young ones surprise you and go big. Sometimes the old ones just dont. But hey I will argue that in general, a bucks rack will give you a decent quick estimate of his age. For the most part a spike on my properties is young and the solid 10 pt is probably a mature deer. There are exceptions (Such as a 71 inch fork horn 4 1/2 year old bucks). If I have someone Im bringing out to one of my farms its easier to say let the small stuff walk. They understand this. I dont need to explain QDM and ageing deer to them. Stick n String, I assume by your name you are a bow hunter. I see you are loc. in Nash. I bow hunt only, several farms in Williamson Co., I would like to invite you Bowhunting. I would like you to see the kind of farm my "wrong" methods of QDM have produced. I don't think we should be nit picking here. As long as everyone is on the same general page the Tn deer herd will improve. I think getting the average weekend hunter to pass on a YOUNG deer in favor of a mature one is a large important step. Let the YOUNG stuff walk ya'll.(To clarify "stuff" is the tennessee whitetail deer)
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#527434 - 12/13/07 12:03 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Didn't mean to sound like we are jumping on you HunterHaas, but as somewhat of a QDMA spokesman, I've learned the hard way that something I say can be taken out of context and spread all over. I've learned to be very precise about my statements.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527436 - 12/13/07 12:05 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
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If you want to start a QDMA Branch, contact the QDMA Regional Director. For TN, that would be Tom Goodhue.

tgoodhue@qdma.com
(270) 776-2838
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527481 - 12/13/07 12:54 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
TAS
6 Point


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Hickman County

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Thanks BSK
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#527517 - 12/13/07 01:46 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
Stick'n'String
10 Point


Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 2689
Loc: Nashville

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Thanks Bryan I had just PM'd Chris the info.
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#527523 - 12/13/07 01:50 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Stick'n'String]
Stick'n'String
10 Point


Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 2689
Loc: Nashville

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Hunterhaas,

Like Bryan said I was just stating the obivious as not everyone understands what is implied by saying let the small ones walk. My post wasn't intended to be an attack just clarifying your point as to what QDM is all about.

PS.
I'd be happy to come hunt with you anytime.
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#527533 - 12/13/07 01:59 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: TAS]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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You know I apoligize to you guys. Somebody broke my car window and stole my bow couple days ago. I have been in a combative kind of mood ever since. I am new to posting but am not new to the site. Its pretty awsome to have knowledgeable people to ask questions and refrence(past topics and posts). And local people too! BSK you have been very helpful and professional!You have gone out of your way to answer my questions. I thank you very much! Anyway as of 1:33 my brand new PSE Brute is fine tuned and ready for the woods. TAS taking your advice and getting off this computer and going hunting. The saddle between these two hills is my Honey Hole, Thanks for the info, gone huntin, Nicholas Haas
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#527576 - 12/13/07 02:51 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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thanks Brian and Daniel, somehow that info has eluded me for a long time
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#527603 - 12/13/07 03:15 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HOOK]
bonekelektr
6 Point


Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 735
Loc: Sullivan Gardens

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bang...thud....
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#527615 - 12/13/07 03:28 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4258
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When it comes to the heritability of antler traits, does may be carrying many of those traits, just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness. There are many instances of male-expressed traits that are only passed on from mother to son. To date, the only antler-trait heritable studies done actually suggest almost all antler traits are passed on by the mother doe, but until someone actually deciphers the genetic code itself, we won't know for sure.


In the october issue of quality whitetails there is a article on deer breeders. Its part 2 of a 3 part article. On the buck specified in the article named bubba,.. he featured a forked left side g-2. This antler trait now has carried over into his son, grandson, and great grandson. Four generations with forked left side g-2,s all from the starting sire. Though each buck definately had distinct racks of their own,.. this 1 trait carried over. All i'm saying,.. its very possible in new studies that some antler traits may come from the male.
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#527830 - 12/13/07 06:40 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
156p&y
10 Point


Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 4215
Loc: Franklin Tn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When non-typical antlers occur on both sides, it is most likely genetic. However, often a body injury can produce a non-typical antler on one side but not on the other. Sometimes that injury-induced non-typicalness on one side is repeated in later years and sometimes it isn't.

Basically, if you see a buck with one normally shaped antler, but a crazy antler on the other side, it is injury induced.


I have an interesting question regarding that BSK. I killed a huge 3 beamed deer back in the 99 season. A friend of mine found out that a local landowner had found a deer almost identical to mine 4-5 years before I harvested the deer I took. Both bucks had very symmetrical typical racks but on their left side they had a 3rd beam and were nearly identical. Now wouldn't that be genetics ?
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#527890 - 12/13/07 07:23 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: 156p&y]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3762
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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possible, and more than likely due to its mother's bloodline

Edited by Chris Tripp (12/13/07 07:23 PM)

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#528206 - 12/14/07 05:56 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When it comes to the heritability of antler traits, does may be carrying many of those traits, just as only women pass on male-pattern baldness. There are many instances of male-expressed traits that are only passed on from mother to son. To date, the only antler-trait heritable studies done actually suggest almost all antler traits are passed on by the mother doe, but until someone actually deciphers the genetic code itself, we won't know for sure.


In the october issue of quality whitetails there is a article on deer breeders. Its part 2 of a 3 part article. On the buck specified in the article named bubba,.. he featured a forked left side g-2. This antler trait now has carried over into his son, grandson, and great grandson. Four generations with forked left side g-2,s all from the starting sire. Though each buck definately had distinct racks of their own,.. this 1 trait carried over. All i'm saying,.. its very possible in new studies that some antler traits may come from the male.


Good example deerchaser007. The Kerr "spike" study definitely proved that bucks pass on some expressed heritable genetics, but how much and exactly what characteristics is the question.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528210 - 12/14/07 05:59 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: 156p&y]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: 156p&y
 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

When non-typical antlers occur on both sides, it is most likely genetic. However, often a body injury can produce a non-typical antler on one side but not on the other. Sometimes that injury-induced non-typicalness on one side is repeated in later years and sometimes it isn't.

Basically, if you see a buck with one normally shaped antler, but a crazy antler on the other side, it is injury induced.


I have an interesting question regarding that BSK. I killed a huge 3 beamed deer back in the 99 season. A friend of mine found out that a local landowner had found a deer almost identical to mine 4-5 years before I harvested the deer I took. Both bucks had very symmetrical typical racks but on their left side they had a 3rd beam and were nearly identical. Now wouldn't that be genetics ?


It sure would, but a doe could have been passing that trait on to her sons.

I see bucks on a single property several years apart that obviously have the same genetic traits, but considering how much bucks disperse, the fact they are on the same property and several years apart (far enough that the first buck couldn't have sired the second buck because the first buck was dead before the second buck was sired), the traits must be being passed down by a local old doe.

Again, considering how much bucks disperse from their birth range, if a speciic antler trait keeps showing up over and over in a given location, the odds are much higher that that trait is being passed on over and over by a local doe or related does.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528523 - 12/14/07 10:47 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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I just dont understand why Does carrying half the genes is an issue? From the pages of North American Whitetail: Bucks and Does each provide 50 percent of a male offspring's genetic potential for antler development. Even though you cannot see the potential a doe provides for antler development, by carrying on a program of removing inferior antlered bucks and leaving only the bigger antlered deer to do the breeding, genetics of does also improved in furture generations. A deer herd can be improved by removing bucks with inferior antlers and allowing those with larger antlers to do the breeding. Genetic research tells us that if traits that are highly heritable, in this case antler mass, are selected for, improvement can be seem in a relatively short period of time. That my friends is way I would not have a problem removing the six.
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#528549 - 12/14/07 11:08 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Happy Birthday woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1801
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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The problem is, the specific expression (called the phenotype) of many inherited traits are NOT contributed 50% from the female and 50% from the male. The most straightforward example is that any physical traits that are expressed from an X chromosome come EXCLUSIVELY from the mother of the male offspring. So if there are any significant parts of the complex equation of "antler genetics" carried by the X chromosome, the father of a male offspring will not contribute anything toward those.

It is actually a lot more complex than this, and even with traits for many other characteristics (in humans, anyway) that are not linked to the X chromosome there is a much stronger linkage to the maternal genetic contribution than the paternal one.

The problem is that we don't know at this time what the relative contributions to the antler phenotype are from the maternal versus paternal genetics. What we have is evidence based on observed patterns of inherited antler characteristics, which suggest that maternal genetic contribution is at least as important if not MORE important than the paternal contribution. Added into this is the dispersal behavior of bucks relative to does that BSK pointed out above - when antler characteristics tend to be similar in a particular area it is more likely due to does than bucks since the does tend to stay put in an area to a greater extent than the bucks.

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#528574 - 12/14/07 11:28 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65387
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Exactly woodchuckc. Thank you.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528578 - 12/14/07 11:31 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Does it matter who contributes (mother/father)?, Does it matter what % is contributed from whom?, as long as it is. If you control(to some extant) the quality of whats being passed on, does it matter where the trait was passed from?(Mother,Father,Grandmothers cousins brother)
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#528593 - 12/14/07 11:39 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 17884
Loc: Branchville

content Online
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
The problem is, the specific expression (called the phenotype) of many inherited traits are NOT contributed 50% from the female and 50% from the male. The most straightforward example is that any physical traits that are expressed from an X chromosome come EXCLUSIVELY from the mother of the male offspring. So if there are any significant parts of the complex equation of "antler genetics" carried by the X chromosome, the father of a male offspring will not contribute anything toward those.

It is actually a lot more complex than this, and even with traits for many other characteristics (in humans, anyway) that are not linked to the X chromosome there is a much stronger linkage to the maternal genetic contribution than the paternal one.

The problem is that we don't know at this time what the relative contributions to the antler phenotype are from the maternal versus paternal genetics. What we have is evidence based on observed patterns of inherited antler characteristics, which suggest that maternal genetic contribution is at least as important if not MORE important than the paternal contribution. Added into this is the dispersal behavior of bucks relative to does that BSK pointed out above - when antler characteristics tend to be similar in a particular area it is more likely due to does than bucks since the does tend to stay put in an area to a greater extent than the bucks.



In other words, if you shoot a "cull buck" because he is 4 1/2 years old and is only a 7 pter, the genectic trait that causes this can still be passed on if the doe, whom is the mother of this buck, is still alive and/or her doe offspring is still breeding...now I have a headache.
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#528597 - 12/14/07 11:41 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
Does it matter who contributes (mother/father)?, Does it matter what % is contributed from whom?, as long as it is. If you control(to some extant) the quality of whats being passed on, does it matter where the trait was passed from?(Mother,Father,Grandmothers cousins brother)



YES!!!

If a father is NOT passing on any of the expressed traits, who the father is and what his antler genetics are would contribute absolutely nothing to future generations.

Again, every mammal (and most living things) gets half of their genetic code from their father, and half from their mother. But that doesn't mean that every expressed genetic trait is a mix of the two. Some traits you only get from your mother's contributing code. Some you only get from your father's. Genetics are complicated beyond our wildest imagination.
_________________________
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#528650 - 12/14/07 12:21 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Im working with data and findings by Dr. John Williams, a geneticist at Texas A&M University on Antler and Body Heritability(the potential of what individuals inherit from their parents). Twenty generations of known quality, age, genetic background and idividually identified deer where analyzed. Such factors as body weight and antler characteristics(including:number of points, spread, basal circumference, main beam length and weight) were closely analyzed through a series of sophisticated scientific tests. As in other research, heritabilty was measured from 0 to 1. The closer to the number 1 the more heritable the trait. The closer to 0 the less heritable the trait. As you can see from the chart three factors rate at .70 or above. They include Basel Circumference, Antler Weight, and Body Weight. Although all factors in question are highly heritable, these three are the highest. Based on considerable research, heriability estimates above .3 are considered to be practical for whitetail managment. Seems solid to me.
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#528656 - 12/14/07 12:36 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Happy Birthday woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1801
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HunterHaas,
I don't think anyone questions that many antler characteristics are inherited. The data you provide certainly shows this - but it does not address at all the question of whether those characteristics are primarily inherited maternally, paternally, or from both. That is the point I am trying to get across (apparently rather unsuccessfully).

A pretty good experiment would be to collect the data like you have shown over some period of time, then kill off or remove all the bucks from that area and bring in a new batch of bucks with "inferior" antlers, and collect the data again over several generations. To be truly controlled, it would have to be a high-fenced area to prevent any influx or efflux of does or bucks in the area, and conducted over a long enough time to minimize environmental variations ("good" growing years vs. "bad" growing years) and enough time for several generations and a good age distribution of the buck population. If I am understanding your viewpoint, HunterHaas, you believe that the vast majority of the new buck offspring will have inferior antlers. I happen to believe that the difference will not be as large between the "before" and "after" bucks, and may be insignificant.

Anybody willing to volunteer to foot the bill and provide the fenced land?


Edited by woodchuckc (12/14/07 01:10 PM)

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#528660 - 12/14/07 12:38 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
Happy Birthday woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1801
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hillbilly Hunter

In other words, if you shoot a "cull buck" because he is 4 1/2 years old and is only a 7 pter, the genectic trait that causes this can still be passed on if the doe, whom is the mother of this buck, is still alive and/or her doe offspring is still breeding...now I have a headache.


YES!

Sorry about the headache, but welcome to my world!

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#528685 - 12/14/07 01:08 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
HunterHaas
Spike


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Williamson County TN

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Well of course. But her doe offspring breeds with a good mature 10 pt. next year instead of another 4 1/2 7 pt doesnt that start to change the gene pool for the better. Will her off spring not improve by having the good 10pt breed her? Over the course of 3 or 4 years have you not improved the herd?
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#528699 - 12/14/07 01:41 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
Happy Birthday woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
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 Originally Posted By: HunterHaas
Well of course. But her doe offspring breeds with a good mature 10 pt. next year instead of another 4 1/2 7 pt doesnt that start to change the gene pool for the better. Will her off spring not improve by having the good 10pt breed her? Over the course of 3 or 4 years have you not improved the herd?


Not if the genetic determinants dominating the antler characteristics are carried by doe. Taking this to the extreme, if this is true it won't matter whether a 10 point or a mature spike breeds her.

Another thing that we haven't brought up in this discussion is that there may be other characteristics that we are selecting for (or selecting against) by "culling" smaller racked bucks. Essentially we have the potential for evolving our deer population in a direction that it wouldn't naturally go by selectively removing a subset of the population based on one characteristic (small antler size). Who knows if there is some desirable trait that small antlered bucks have that is absent (or minimal) in large antlered bucks? This is not a likely scenario to occur with a free ranging deer population over a statewide or regionwide basis, but could certainly be a factor in localized areas. For example (and this is only a theoretical example - I have no evidence and don't propose this as reality), what if bucks with small antlers due to their genetics have a natural resistance to EHD, and we selectively eliminate that segment of the population over many years?

At this point I don't think that we have enough solid scientific evidence to conclusively answer the question of who contributes most to the antler phenotype of bucks, or if it is an equal contribution from maternal and paternal genetics. I have taken the devil's advocate position somewhat and pointed out the reasons why the potential exists that the maternal contribution is dominant (as has BSK), but the bottom line is that we need more (and better controlled) data. Without that, from a scientific viewpoint "culling" small antlered bucks just eliminates another mouth to feed and leaves that much more nutritional resources for the deer that remain.

This has been a really good topic - I appreciate that we have been able to have a mature and even-tempered discussion. All too often discussions on controversial topics end up going down the toilet.

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#528706 - 12/14/07 01:45 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HunterHaas]
BSK
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HunterHaas,

UGA did a study where they took every imaginable antler measurement from all the male offspring of an individual father (sire). They then statistically analyzed these measurements against the father's measurements. In addition, they analyzed all of the sons' measurements against each other. They found no correlation between the father's measurements and his sons' measurements, or between all of his sons' measurements. In essence, there was no relationship, individually or in groups, of the sons' antler dimensions (or shape) to that of their father. In addition, there was no relationship between the measurements of the sons' antlers when compared against each other.

Then they looked at all of the sons of an individual mother (dam) and ran the same comparisons between all of the sons. In this comparison there WERE strong statistical relationships between the antler measurements (and shape) of all of the sons of a single mother.

This suggests (but does not prove) that bucks get the majority of their heritable expressed antler characterists from their mother and not their father.

_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#528719 - 12/14/07 01:59 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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And what woodchuckc was proposed--one seemingly unrelated genetic trait linked to another--is not at all that uncommon. Geneticists are finding more and more of these patterns.

In an enclosed environment (high-fence) you could very well be doing some unexpected harm by artificially attempting to select for or against a particular genetic trait.

It is now well established in deer DNA parentage studies (who is the father of individual deer in a herd), that Nature does not select for large antlers (large-antlered bucks do not produce more offspring than smaller antlered bucks). If Nature does not select for this, then it may be a questionable practice to do so artificially.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

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#528730 - 12/14/07 02:06 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Happy Birthday woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
HunterHaas,

UGA did the same study and when looking at just the heritability from the male (sire) line, the numbers came up near zero except for one trait, and I think it was beam length.

However, when looking at the numbers from the mother's (da) line, the numbers showed a very strong link.



Thanks for posting that, BSK. I thought I remembered you posting some information along those lines before, but I didn't have a clear enough recollection of it to risk misquoting it. That is precisely the type of data that addresses this question. Without knowing all the parameters of the data collection in that study, it seems to me to be pretty strong evidence for a strong maternal linkage. I'm sure that you know better than me how hard it is to control population studies. It is hard enough to minimize biases and uncontrolled variables in the laboratory situations I work in, let alone in a situation like this with animals in an uncontrolled environment.

Someday just for grins I'd like to sit down over a brewski or two and tell you about some adventures I had doing studies on seasonal metabolic rates in big and little brown bats I did as a graduate student in the copper mines of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan - I think you might get a kick out of it.

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#528762 - 12/14/07 02:29 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: woodchuckc]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
Someday just for grins I'd like to sit down over a brewski or two and tell you about some adventures I had doing studies on seasonal metabolic rates in big and little brown bats I did as a graduate student in the copper mines of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan - I think you might get a kick out of it.


That would be interesting! But can I bring along my sister as an "interpreter?" That's where I get my "genetics" knowledge from. She is a Vanderbilt PhD in genetics (microbiology) and worked on the Human Genome Project. She is now a research coordinator for a drug company working on genetically oriented cancer drugs.

She could share her stories of some of her college genetics work where she had to go around and pick up road-killed mice in Nebraska!
_________________________
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#529218 - 12/14/07 09:56 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Stick'n'String
10 Point


Registered: 06/08/04
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Bryan,

Maybe you remember the details a little better than I about the research Dr. Hellickson did at the SEDSGM in Baton Rouge two years ago. If I remember correctly they culled EVERY spike and buck that was >4.5 and had 8 points or less over several years in hopes of increasing B&C scores. However, I think the results either showed no significant improvement or actually negative results.

In a high fence situation I could see the benefit of a culling program as you can control dispersal and herd numbers. However, I still theink the primary benefits would be due to food availability.

In a free range herd there are far too many other variables that need to be addressed before genetics should be even a thought and even then I doubt you'd be able to change much. I'd recommend everyone read BSK's article "Plugging the Lowest Hole in The Bucket" its a good one ;\)
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#529360 - 12/15/07 06:34 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Stick'n'String]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Mickey's research proved--unequivocally in my mind--that culling will not work in a free-ranging herd.

Now I think inside a high fence it may produce improvements, but in a free-ranging herd, no.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#529945 - 12/15/07 10:43 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Tiny
16 Point


Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 17756
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Just curious, which QDMers would shoot this buck and which wouldn't? And by the way, he's just a big 6-pointer.



Would depend on the regs or the rules were I was hunting at,but BANG most likely.

Now that I went and read through all of this one,BANG on the second without question.


Edited by Tiny (12/15/07 11:06 PM)
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#532059 - 12/18/07 07:09 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: ]
BSK
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What are the harvest rules for chaney lake?
_________________________
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#532253 - 12/18/07 09:47 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
Unregistered



chaney lake current rules are as follows.
juvenile hunter who has never tagged a deer, this means even on another piece of property can kill anything that they want on their first tag. then they play with the big boys.

our buck rule is that a buck must have at least 3 points on one side and the brow tine does not count as a point.

we try to harvest 2-3 does per buck.

we know that the above is not on the high end of QDM. at the same time i know that most of the members of this club have to have some exact guideline to go by. this so far has worked the best for us.

kill for current season
11 bucks all 8 point or better largest 8 point 149 BC gross
200 lb live wt no teeth

smallest 8 point 89 BC gross

20 does as of 12/15/07

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#532290 - 12/18/07 10:10 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: Anonymous]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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What are the ages of those bucks; i.e. what percent yearling, 2 1/2, 3 1/2, etc.?
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#532807 - 12/18/07 05:08 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Chaneylake
Brownsville Mafia
16 Point


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the rules at chaney lake are as follows:
if a juvenile has never killed a deer before then he/she can kill anything that they wish. then they abide by the following

bucks must have 3 points on one side not counting brow tine.
we try to harvest 2-3 does per buck. i want the does as early as possible.

other than 2-4 quality hunters, guys that can really tell as what to shoot, i have found that the above is the best solution
to growing larger bucks on this piece of property.

this tract of land is 2600 acres, all hardwood timber, that has been select cut for the past 80 years.

so far this season 11 bucks 20 does

the largest buck weighed 200 lb live weight
scored 149 B@C gross 8 point 22 in inside 16.5 tip to tip
only teeth he had was his front teeth

10 point B@C 144 1/8 gross 3.5 yrs old
10 point B@C 131 4/8 gross 3.5 yrs old
9 point B@C 126 4/8 gross 3.5 yrs old
9 point B@C 109 0/8 gross 3.5 yrs old
balance are 8 points averaging about 90 +/-
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#532980 - 12/18/07 07:13 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: HOOK]
7mm08
12 Point


Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 5000
Loc: In a river hopefully!

content Online
BSK,
As you always say..."if you don't check their teeth.." Just ask him to smile real big next time for the photo so that we can know how old he is. HA!

Nice deer.
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#533542 - 12/19/07 07:51 AM Re: Shooter? [Re: 7mm08]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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That's a pretty good harvested buck age structure for those harvest rules chaneylake.

But one of my worries with antler point restrictions is what is NOT being harvested because of the rules. That may be just as important as what is being harvested. I hate to see mature bucks made unharvestable due to antler point restrictions.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#533968 - 12/19/07 12:55 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: BSK]
Chaneylake
Brownsville Mafia
16 Point


Registered: 12/18/07
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Loc: on the wings of a snow white d...

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its the down side of dealing with hunters that can judge and ones that can not. we are still trying to make adjustments. our main problem is that i feel that chaney has only about 4 hunter that can age a deer, the rest just want to kill a buck under the club rules
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"Don't piss down my back and tell me its rain", Fletcher, Outlaw Josey Wales

Living somewhere between this world and the other, Legends of the Fall

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#533989 - 12/19/07 01:11 PM Re: Shooter? [Re: Chaneylake]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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I can understand that.
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