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#522030 - 12/09/07 06:08 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: deerchaser007]
Swampster
4 Point


Registered: 10/14/00
Posts: 422
Loc: Huron, TN, USA

Offline
I have not seen a "real lack of nutrition" this year. There has always seemed to be plenty of forage so far. If there was a lack of nutrition, I think the deer would have been very hard on the soybeans in my fields. Since fall, we have had plenty of rain and new plant growth. Also, the one day I went hunting, the deer I shot had quite a bit of fat on it. Even now, my plots are not over-grazed (and there are only two very small plots).

I do expect some scarcity once a real hard freeze sets in, but so far the herd looks ok.


Edited by Swampster (12/09/07 06:11 AM)

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#522067 - 12/09/07 07:54 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 18638
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Supplemental feeding is a very dangrous practice, not only from a "disease spread" issue, but also an aflatoxin issue (and corn with less than 20 PBB can jump to hundreds of PBB in a few days), but most importantly from a herd health/density issue. I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

I do not supplementally feed any of the herds I manage in the MidSouth and I do not recommend it for this area. It is a very dangerous practice.

And by the way, a trough feeder is the fastest way to spread contagious disease.

I totally agree with BSK on this ---- very dangerous and you will seldom "see" the harm you are doing, but I believe in Tennessee you will be doing more harm than good to your deer herd by supplemental feeding.

A few years ago, since there was a mast failure about like this year, I put out a little aflatoxin-free corn in January. But then we had some warm weather, all kinds of native browse sprouted, and the deer didn't eat the corn up. I still had molded corn laying around at the end of March, at which time I spent many hours trying to remove it before turkey season opened. But it didn't matter much ---- the corn had developed alflatoxin, and killed most of the turkeys in my hunting area.

All it takes is one batch of corn to develop aflatoxin, and your turkeys are gone. One other thing: No one mentioned predators. You will greatly increase your button buck losses to natural predators like coyotes and bobcats (and even household dogs) in most circumstances. Of course, if you increase your button buck losses by 25%, and don't realize it, guess that makes it acceptable? Not worth it to me.

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#522069 - 12/09/07 08:01 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Swampster]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 18638
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Swampster
I have not seen a "real lack of nutrition" this year. There has always seemed to be plenty of forage so far. Since fall, we have had plenty of rain and new plant growth.

I do expect some scarcity once a real hard freeze sets in, but so far the herd looks ok.

I totally agree, and the warm weather and steady light rain of this weekend is creating a smorgasboard of new deer food --- naturally.

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#522179 - 12/09/07 11:11 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Wes Parrish]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Supplemental feeding is a very dangrous practice, not only from a "disease spread" issue, but also an aflatoxin issue (and corn with less than 20 PBB can jump to hundreds of PBB in a few days), but most importantly from a herd health/density issue. I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

I do not supplementally feed any of the herds I manage in the MidSouth and I do not recommend it for this area. It is a very dangerous practice.

And by the way, a trough feeder is the fastest way to spread contagious disease.

I totally agree with BSK on this ---- very dangerous and you will seldom "see" the harm you are doing, but I believe in Tennessee you will be doing more harm than good to your deer herd by supplemental feeding.

A few years ago, since there was a mast failure about like this year, I put out a little aflatoxin-free corn in January. But then we had some warm weather, all kinds of native browse sprouted, and the deer didn't eat the corn up. I still had molded corn laying around at the end of March, at which time I spent many hours trying to remove it before turkey season opened. But it didn't matter much ---- the corn had developed alflatoxin, and killed most of the turkeys in my hunting area.

All it takes is one batch of corn to develop aflatoxin, and your turkeys are gone. One other thing: No one mentioned predators. You will greatly increase your button buck losses to natural predators like coyotes and bobcats (and even household dogs) in most circumstances. Of course, if you increase your button buck losses by 25%, and don't realize it, guess that makes it acceptable? Not worth it to me.

thats why you use a trough feeder, also thats why you limit corn use, it can have negative affects on health, and it doesnt really do much good for the herd anyway.
as for the predator thing, i believe that at some times of the year deer are more concentrated on my foodplots than they ever have been around my trough. would this not also create a high-risk predator situation? i dont really know the % of deer being killed by natural predators, but if i had to guess i would say there are far more being killed due to lack of nutrition.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#523019 - 12/10/07 06:16 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
Worm
18 Point


Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 21700
Loc: Huntingdon, Tn

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Just so you know...

TWRA strongly discourages the supplemental feeding of all wildlife (see page 24 of the Hunting Guide).

Here's a reference for you regarding baiting practices: Artificial Feeding and Baiting of Wildlife


I have yet to find data on the supplemental feeding of black panthers. When is AlanP going to finish his research and get this info out to us?
_________________________
We don't call 911!!!

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#523066 - 12/10/07 07:10 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Worm]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Quote:
thats why you use a trough feeder,...


Corn in trough feeders go bad as well, and turkeys and other small game will still eat from a trough feeder.

Now in TN, aflatoxin problems are definitely reduced during cold weather (inhibits the growth of aflatoxin-producing mold), but sudden warm spells like we are experiencing now can be a problem.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#523071 - 12/10/07 07:17 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Quote:
i dont really know the % of deer being killed by natural predators, but if i had to guess i would say there are far more being killed due to lack of nutrition.


I seriously doubt many deer in TN ever starve to death. What I'm more worried about is other malnutrition-related problems, such as low fawn survival. The brutal summer we just experienced definitely had a very negative affect on fawn survival in my area this year. Observed (and photo census) fawn recruitment numbers are terrible. Then add that does appear to be in poor shape this fall/winter and we see a second year in a row (this summer) of low fawn production.

And of course, from a hunting perspective, bucks coming out of winter in stressed condition can't maximize antler growth in spring/summer. I predicted, and I believe we are seeing, some of the best antler-production per age-class this year, due to the two great acorn crops on a row in 2005 and 2006. However, with the nutritional stresses this fall/winter, we will "pay the piper" next year. I expect we will see some of the worst antler production per age-class we've seen in some time next year.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#523359 - 12/10/07 11:02 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
16 Point


Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 11107
Loc: NC Piedmonts

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

Bryan,

Please post these. While I have become convinced that some folks just do not want to hear it, others may listen.
_________________________
Abandon all rational and unbiased thought. Just blame Boooosh.
lIbeRaLs LIE ... lazy lIbeRaLs repeat LIES.
: http://obamaclock.org/

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#524217 - 12/10/07 09:43 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Quote:
thats why you use a trough feeder,...


Corn in trough feeders go bad as well, and turkeys and other small game will still eat from a trough feeder.

Now in TN, aflatoxin problems are definitely reduced during cold weather (inhibits the growth of aflatoxin-producing mold), but sudden warm spells like we are experiencing now can be a problem.


what i meant was that you can immediately remove all the feed from a trough feeder. i have never seen a turkey eat from a trough feeder, and i had cameras set up on mine for two months last year and recorded hundreds of pictures.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#524221 - 12/10/07 09:46 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Quote:
i dont really know the % of deer being killed by natural predators, but if i had to guess i would say there are far more being killed due to lack of nutrition.


I seriously doubt many deer in TN ever starve to death. What I'm more worried about is other malnutrition-related problems, such as low fawn survival. The brutal summer we just experienced definitely had a very negative affect on fawn survival in my area this year. Observed (and photo census) fawn recruitment numbers are terrible. Then add that does appear to be in poor shape this fall/winter and we see a second year in a row (this summer) of low fawn production.

And of course, from a hunting perspective, bucks coming out of winter in stressed condition can't maximize antler growth in spring/summer. I predicted, and I believe we are seeing, some of the best antler-production per age-class this year, due to the two great acorn crops on a row in 2005 and 2006. However, with the nutritional stresses this fall/winter, we will "pay the piper" next year. I expect we will see some of the worst antler production per age-class we've seen in some time next year.

and yet my supplementally feed deer are utterly fat, have had no signs of ehd, and have had access to a 25% protein sight this past spring and will benefit again this coming spring.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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