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#514107 - 12/02/07 03:25 PM Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007
Greenhead
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 477
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

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Everyone knows there has been a real lack of nutrition this year. What is this going to do for next year?
Will we see a slack in antler growth in 2008?
What can we do to help?
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#514112 - 12/02/07 03:30 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Greenhead]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16948
Loc: Allardt, TN

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The deer will be just fine.
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-QDM=Better Deer, Better Deer Hunting
-Let Him Go, So He Can Grow

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#514290 - 12/02/07 06:37 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: smstone22]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4276
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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YES,.. antler growth will suffer next year. What can you do,. nothing now. Winter food plots would have been the only chance for you to even come close to helping.

The only folks that will not suffer is the areas that have the deer within carrying capacity, have good habitat available, and have good lush plots throughout winter.

If some areas have a bad winter,. you can expect a winter lose of deer. Habitat in some areas are allready destroyed by wildlife that is normally there. A bad winter will hurt the deer big time.

Some january thru march supplemental feeding in these areas will help. BUT,.. not solve the antler growth problem. BUT,.. it will be expensive.
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#514894 - 12/03/07 11:23 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
YES,.. antler growth will suffer next year. What can you do,. nothing now. Winter food plots would have been the only chance for you to even come close to helping.


What Deerchaser007 said.

We will see declines in fawn production and survival this coming summer, as well as declines in antler production per age-class.

And there's nothing that can be done about that now. Habitat managemenment (including cool-season food plots) would have been the best hedge against nutritional problems this winter and spring.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#516451 - 12/04/07 06:12 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Greenhead]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea, ive seen many commercials for a "golden nuggets" feed which has 17-18% protein, last year we experimented (after season) with cottonseed meal, soybean meal, and corn. the two types of meal are both high in protein and the corn is high in carbs as well as attraction. also, to get the most bang for your buck, i wouldnt use feeders which distribute feed on ground where it can be accessed by many small game animals. i believe the laws concerning feeders are that you cant hunt within x number of feet and also on any trail leading to the feeder, but to play it safe we either wait till the end of the season or stop hunting the area
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#516502 - 12/04/07 06:37 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4276
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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record rack golden nuggets are 13 to 14 percent crude protein. Deer corn by record rack is 8 percent. Only protein pellet feeds are 16 percent or higher in crude protein.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#516511 - 12/04/07 06:46 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: deerchaser007]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
record rack golden nuggets are 13 to 14 percent crude protein. Deer corn by record rack is 8 percent. Only protein pellet feeds are 16 percent or higher in crude protein.

ok, your right abou the record rack, i dont know where i heard that, but i do know that cottonseed meal is around 50% protein and soybean meal is around 45% protein
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#517109 - 12/05/07 07:05 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: hard county
in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea,


I strongly disagree with that comment.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#517754 - 12/05/07 04:40 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: hard county
in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea,


I strongly disagree with that comment.

why?
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#517766 - 12/05/07 04:52 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4276
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: hard county
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: hard county
in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea,


I strongly disagree with that comment.

why?


unsafe supplemental feeding practices lead to the spread of disease in wildlife
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#517813 - 12/05/07 05:32 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: deerchaser007]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: hard county
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: hard county
in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea,


I strongly disagree with that comment.

why?


unsafe supplemental feeding practices lead to the spread of disease in wildlife

i dont use a "spin" type feeder, i use a trough, not only does this keep the small animals from eating the feed, it also prevents the type of disease spread you are talking about. correct me if im wrong, but i believe the disease you are talking about is caused by deer accidentally ingesting waste.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#518017 - 12/05/07 07:24 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
In_my_sights
6 Point


Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 960
Loc: Macon,Davidson, and anywhere e...

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 Originally Posted By: hard county
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: hard county
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: hard county
in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea,


I strongly disagree with that comment.

why?


unsafe supplemental feeding practices lead to the spread of disease in wildlife

i dont use a "spin" type feeder, i use a trough, not only does this keep the small animals from eating the feed, it also prevents the type of disease spread you are talking about. correct me if im wrong, but i believe the disease you are talking about is caused by deer accidentally ingesting waste.


Use the search engine within this forum. Search for supplemental feeding or corn and you will have about 3 days worth of reading. It is due to a mold on the corn Aflotoxin (sp?) They also spread other diseases because of feeding in group. Kind of like one bad apple ruins the bunch. Many disagree on the subject but hearing it from a biologist kind of convinced me to never even start. They also kill turkeys easier than deer. I have experienced that first hand.
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#518198 - 12/05/07 08:28 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: In_my_sights]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: In_my_sights
 Originally Posted By: hard county
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
 Originally Posted By: hard county
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: hard county
in areas which are not hunted, supplemental feeding would be a good idea,


I strongly disagree with that comment.

why?


unsafe supplemental feeding practices lead to the spread of disease in wildlife

i dont use a "spin" type feeder, i use a trough, not only does this keep the small animals from eating the feed, it also prevents the type of disease spread you are talking about. correct me if im wrong, but i believe the disease you are talking about is caused by deer accidentally ingesting waste.


Use the search engine within this forum. Search for supplemental feeding or corn and you will have about 3 days worth of reading. It is due to a mold on the corn Aflotoxin (sp?) They also spread other diseases because of feeding in group. Kind of like one bad apple ruins the bunch. Many disagree on the subject but hearing it from a biologist kind of convinced me to never even start. They also kill turkeys easier than deer. I have experienced that first hand.

when using livestock suitable corn or record rack corn the corn is tested to have less than 20 parts per billion the lowest quanitity aflatoxin infested deer was 800 parts per billion, so if you immediately feed, then you should hev no problem, or if you want to play it even more safe, use a mix of the meals i have listed, rice-bran or pellets
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#518265 - 12/05/07 08:58 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
In_my_sights
6 Point


Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 960
Loc: Macon,Davidson, and anywhere e...

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Or you could plant food plots, trees beneficial to wildlife, improve habitat and save money to boot. All with better results. Deer do not need food from a bag. If they want food they will find it.
Just my 2 cents.
Disclaimer:
I am not a biologist.
_________________________
http://www.xpercominc.com

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#518294 - 12/05/07 09:11 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: In_my_sights]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: In_my_sights
Or you could plant food plots, trees beneficial to wildlife, improve habitat and save money to boot. All with better results. Deer do not need food from a bag. If they want food they will find it.
Just my 2 cents.
Disclaimer:
I am not a biologist.

plots are great, (i have around ten aces planted) and you cant substitute them with feed, but for this mid-late winter it might be a good idea to put something out.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#518474 - 12/06/07 08:08 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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hard country,

Supplemental feeding is a very dangrous practice, not only from a "disease spread" issue, but also an aflatoxin issue (and corn with less than 20 PBB can jump to hundreds of PBB in a few days), but most importantly from a herd health/density issue. I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

I do not supplementally feed any of the herds I manage in the MidSouth and I do not recommend it for this area. It is a very dangerous practice.

And by the way, a trough feeder is the fastest way to spread contagious disease.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#518507 - 12/06/07 08:33 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
remington
4 Point


Registered: 11/22/02
Posts: 237
Loc: Roanoke Rapids N.C. USA

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I gotta question about aflatoxin.
What if the corn you put out was on the cob that was just harvested from a field on the property you hunt. You put it out but spread it out very wide. Would that be any different than the corn the deer are picking up out of the field already?

I put out corn maily for the trail camera(it's legal to bait in NC) but we have put out tons of it over the years at bait piles and I honestly have never seen where it helps as far as hunting goes or hurts as far as health goes. Although it could be hurting and you just don't realize it.

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#518580 - 12/06/07 09:22 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: remington]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: remington
I gotta question about aflatoxin.
What if the corn you put out was on the cob that was just harvested from a field on the property you hunt. You put it out but spread it out very wide. Would that be any different than the corn the deer are picking up out of the field already?


Is it any different? No. But even standing corn can contain aflatoxin. However, once the warm, humid weather of summer is over, the growth of aflatoxin-producing mold slows dramatically, hence fall/winter corn isn't anywhere near the problem summer corn is.


 Quote:
I put out corn maily for the trail camera(it's legal to bait in NC) but we have put out tons of it over the years at bait piles and I honestly have never seen where it helps as far as hunting goes or hurts as far as health goes. Although it could be hurting and you just don't realize it.


"Although it could be hurting and you just don't realize it." And THAT'S the problem. Hunters/managers think they would notice a problem if one existed. I can tell you from experience, they won't.

I've used this example repeatedly, but it's the best one I can think of:

In a normal TN deer herd, there are probably 6-10 fawns that die of natural causes ever year per square mile. Now lets say you've hunted/worked with a property 20 years. In those 20 years, how many dead fawns have you ever found? In those 20 years, there would have been 120-200 dead fawns per square mile.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#518939 - 12/06/07 04:22 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
hard country,

Supplemental feeding is a very dangrous practice, not only from a "disease spread" issue, but also an aflatoxin issue (and corn with less than 20 PBB can jump to hundreds of PBB in a few days), but most importantly from a herd health/density issue. I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

I do not supplementally feed any of the herds I manage in the MidSouth and I do not recommend it for this area. It is a very dangerous practice.

And by the way, a trough feeder is the fastest way to spread contagious disease.

i will continue to supplemental feed because i have had good results.
less than half of our feed is corn and we devote 10 acres to food plots, 5 of these are year round perennials. not only have i not observed much of a spike in the density, i have not observed extensive feeding period! the deer ate all they wanted last year from late january to february and again from june to august and i put out only 400 hundred pounds. 50 in cottonseed meal, 50 in soybean meal, 100 in protein nuggetts, and 200 in corn. our deer stayed fat and healthy and we documented three sets of triplets at least who survived until winter. also of merit, we had no casualties found from ehd, coincidence? maybe, but healthier deer have stronger immune systems and i believe it helped.
if aflatoxin was the threat that everyone said it was then i dont believe grains would be feed to livestock at all.
as for the trough thing, i actually am friends with an ag major who i consulted about what to construct a feeder from. he said that wooden side boards (to prevent cutting), any hard, smooth bottom (we used a sheet of high density 1/8 inch plastic) along with a roof over it at least 6' high (we used metal) was the best way to go.
the feed stays dry, i can pick up the plastic board and wipe off at any point and i genuinely believe that it is a fairly disease free zone. (i would eat out of it!)
i would appreciate any synopsis you have to point me away from supplemental feeding, but i cant just take your word for it. there are just to many other experts who believe in it who also make their living at this stuff.
it might interest you to know that i have had people try to talk me out of using food plots for the same deer-density problems you have discussed hear.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#520339 - 12/07/07 02:23 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point


Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6636
Loc: Nashville

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Just so you know...

TWRA strongly discourages the supplemental feeding of all wildlife (see page 24 of the Hunting Guide).

Here's a reference for you regarding baiting practices: Artificial Feeding and Baiting of Wildlife
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If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.

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#522030 - 12/09/07 06:08 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: deerchaser007]
Swampster
4 Point


Registered: 10/14/00
Posts: 433
Loc: Huron, TN, USA

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I have not seen a "real lack of nutrition" this year. There has always seemed to be plenty of forage so far. If there was a lack of nutrition, I think the deer would have been very hard on the soybeans in my fields. Since fall, we have had plenty of rain and new plant growth. Also, the one day I went hunting, the deer I shot had quite a bit of fat on it. Even now, my plots are not over-grazed (and there are only two very small plots).

I do expect some scarcity once a real hard freeze sets in, but so far the herd looks ok.


Edited by Swampster (12/09/07 06:11 AM)

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#522067 - 12/09/07 07:54 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Supplemental feeding is a very dangrous practice, not only from a "disease spread" issue, but also an aflatoxin issue (and corn with less than 20 PBB can jump to hundreds of PBB in a few days), but most importantly from a herd health/density issue. I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

I do not supplementally feed any of the herds I manage in the MidSouth and I do not recommend it for this area. It is a very dangerous practice.

And by the way, a trough feeder is the fastest way to spread contagious disease.

I totally agree with BSK on this ---- very dangerous and you will seldom "see" the harm you are doing, but I believe in Tennessee you will be doing more harm than good to your deer herd by supplemental feeding.

A few years ago, since there was a mast failure about like this year, I put out a little aflatoxin-free corn in January. But then we had some warm weather, all kinds of native browse sprouted, and the deer didn't eat the corn up. I still had molded corn laying around at the end of March, at which time I spent many hours trying to remove it before turkey season opened. But it didn't matter much ---- the corn had developed alflatoxin, and killed most of the turkeys in my hunting area.

All it takes is one batch of corn to develop aflatoxin, and your turkeys are gone. One other thing: No one mentioned predators. You will greatly increase your button buck losses to natural predators like coyotes and bobcats (and even household dogs) in most circumstances. Of course, if you increase your button buck losses by 25%, and don't realize it, guess that makes it acceptable? Not worth it to me.

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#522069 - 12/09/07 08:01 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Swampster]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Swampster
I have not seen a "real lack of nutrition" this year. There has always seemed to be plenty of forage so far. Since fall, we have had plenty of rain and new plant growth.

I do expect some scarcity once a real hard freeze sets in, but so far the herd looks ok.

I totally agree, and the warm weather and steady light rain of this weekend is creating a smorgasboard of new deer food --- naturally.

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#522179 - 12/09/07 11:11 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Wes Parrish]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Supplemental feeding is a very dangrous practice, not only from a "disease spread" issue, but also an aflatoxin issue (and corn with less than 20 PBB can jump to hundreds of PBB in a few days), but most importantly from a herd health/density issue. I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

I do not supplementally feed any of the herds I manage in the MidSouth and I do not recommend it for this area. It is a very dangerous practice.

And by the way, a trough feeder is the fastest way to spread contagious disease.

I totally agree with BSK on this ---- very dangerous and you will seldom "see" the harm you are doing, but I believe in Tennessee you will be doing more harm than good to your deer herd by supplemental feeding.

A few years ago, since there was a mast failure about like this year, I put out a little aflatoxin-free corn in January. But then we had some warm weather, all kinds of native browse sprouted, and the deer didn't eat the corn up. I still had molded corn laying around at the end of March, at which time I spent many hours trying to remove it before turkey season opened. But it didn't matter much ---- the corn had developed alflatoxin, and killed most of the turkeys in my hunting area.

All it takes is one batch of corn to develop aflatoxin, and your turkeys are gone. One other thing: No one mentioned predators. You will greatly increase your button buck losses to natural predators like coyotes and bobcats (and even household dogs) in most circumstances. Of course, if you increase your button buck losses by 25%, and don't realize it, guess that makes it acceptable? Not worth it to me.

thats why you use a trough feeder, also thats why you limit corn use, it can have negative affects on health, and it doesnt really do much good for the herd anyway.
as for the predator thing, i believe that at some times of the year deer are more concentrated on my foodplots than they ever have been around my trough. would this not also create a high-risk predator situation? i dont really know the % of deer being killed by natural predators, but if i had to guess i would say there are far more being killed due to lack of nutrition.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#523019 - 12/10/07 06:16 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
Worm
18 Point


Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 21700
Loc: Huntingdon, Tn

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Just so you know...

TWRA strongly discourages the supplemental feeding of all wildlife (see page 24 of the Hunting Guide).

Here's a reference for you regarding baiting practices: Artificial Feeding and Baiting of Wildlife


I have yet to find data on the supplemental feeding of black panthers. When is AlanP going to finish his research and get this info out to us?
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#523066 - 12/10/07 07:10 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Worm]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Quote:
thats why you use a trough feeder,...


Corn in trough feeders go bad as well, and turkeys and other small game will still eat from a trough feeder.

Now in TN, aflatoxin problems are definitely reduced during cold weather (inhibits the growth of aflatoxin-producing mold), but sudden warm spells like we are experiencing now can be a problem.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#523071 - 12/10/07 07:17 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Quote:
i dont really know the % of deer being killed by natural predators, but if i had to guess i would say there are far more being killed due to lack of nutrition.


I seriously doubt many deer in TN ever starve to death. What I'm more worried about is other malnutrition-related problems, such as low fawn survival. The brutal summer we just experienced definitely had a very negative affect on fawn survival in my area this year. Observed (and photo census) fawn recruitment numbers are terrible. Then add that does appear to be in poor shape this fall/winter and we see a second year in a row (this summer) of low fawn production.

And of course, from a hunting perspective, bucks coming out of winter in stressed condition can't maximize antler growth in spring/summer. I predicted, and I believe we are seeing, some of the best antler-production per age-class this year, due to the two great acorn crops on a row in 2005 and 2006. However, with the nutritional stresses this fall/winter, we will "pay the piper" next year. I expect we will see some of the worst antler production per age-class we've seen in some time next year.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#523359 - 12/10/07 11:02 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
Greg .
aPoStROpHe PolIcE
16 Point


Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 11122
Loc: NC Piedmonts

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

Bryan,

Please post these. While I have become convinced that some folks just do not want to hear it, others may listen.
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#524217 - 12/10/07 09:43 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
Loc: hornsby tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Quote:
thats why you use a trough feeder,...


Corn in trough feeders go bad as well, and turkeys and other small game will still eat from a trough feeder.

Now in TN, aflatoxin problems are definitely reduced during cold weather (inhibits the growth of aflatoxin-producing mold), but sudden warm spells like we are experiencing now can be a problem.


what i meant was that you can immediately remove all the feed from a trough feeder. i have never seen a turkey eat from a trough feeder, and i had cameras set up on mine for two months last year and recorded hundreds of pictures.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#524221 - 12/10/07 09:46 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 558
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Quote:
i dont really know the % of deer being killed by natural predators, but if i had to guess i would say there are far more being killed due to lack of nutrition.


I seriously doubt many deer in TN ever starve to death. What I'm more worried about is other malnutrition-related problems, such as low fawn survival. The brutal summer we just experienced definitely had a very negative affect on fawn survival in my area this year. Observed (and photo census) fawn recruitment numbers are terrible. Then add that does appear to be in poor shape this fall/winter and we see a second year in a row (this summer) of low fawn production.

And of course, from a hunting perspective, bucks coming out of winter in stressed condition can't maximize antler growth in spring/summer. I predicted, and I believe we are seeing, some of the best antler-production per age-class this year, due to the two great acorn crops on a row in 2005 and 2006. However, with the nutritional stresses this fall/winter, we will "pay the piper" next year. I expect we will see some of the worst antler production per age-class we've seen in some time next year.

and yet my supplementally feed deer are utterly fat, have had no signs of ehd, and have had access to a 25% protein sight this past spring and will benefit again this coming spring.
_________________________
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#524409 - 12/11/07 07:17 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BSK
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And what are you going to say when a contagious disease breaks out in the area, and your feeding program spreads the disease very rapidly to all the deer?

And this isn't a "could happen" but a "will happen" event. It's just a matter of time. Go up to MI and see what feeding programs did for the spread of bovine TB.
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#524418 - 12/11/07 07:30 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: Greg .]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Greg .
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I can point you to some very, very detailed synopsies listing many problems with supplemental feeding.

Bryan,

Please post these. While I have become convinced that some folks just do not want to hear it, others may listen.


Greg,

This lengthy document (around 60 pages) is the best synopsis of artificial feeding research I know of. I like this document because it reviews considerable research on both the positives and negatives of artificial feeding.

http://wildlife1.usask.ca/wildlife_health_topics/wildlife_baiting.pdf
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525107 - 12/11/07 04:49 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
BigGameGuy
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Dagnabbit Bryan...you stole my reference! \:D

See below...

 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
Just so you know...

TWRA strongly discourages the supplemental feeding of all wildlife (see page 24 of the Hunting Guide).

Here's a reference for you regarding baiting practices: Artificial Feeding and Baiting of Wildlife


Edited by BigGameGuy (12/11/07 04:49 PM)
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#525129 - 12/11/07 05:04 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
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Don't leave a reference lying around me for long BGG... ;\)
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#525211 - 12/11/07 06:18 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
And what are you going to say when a contagious disease breaks out in the area, and your feeding program spreads the disease very rapidly to all the deer?

And this isn't a "could happen" but a "will happen" event. It's just a matter of time. Go up to MI and see what feeding programs did for the spread of bovine TB.

now, are you saying that "will happen" as in every supplemental feeding program has had that happen or is this like the the illustration "given an infinite amount of time and a room full of monkeys, pens and paper; the complete works of shakespeare wil be produced"
seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it. im not saying that irresponsible feeding is not a problem, but there are programs, tailored to a specific habitat, which work for the overall health of the herd. i have not seen much scientific evidence against responsible baiting, and i personally believe that it helps my herd.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
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"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#525408 - 12/11/07 08:13 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BigGameGuy
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 Originally Posted By: hard county
...seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it.


I would love to see the "difference of opinion" on the baiting/artificial feed issue between those wildlife professionals who "make their money" off baiting/hunting programs and those who are in charge of "what's good for the resource".

I think there is where you'll find the difference in support and opposition.
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#525472 - 12/11/07 08:44 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
hard county
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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
 Originally Posted By: hard county
...seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it.


I would love to see the "difference of opinion" on the baiting/artificial feed issue between those wildlife professionals who "make their money" off baiting/hunting programs and those who are in charge of "what's good for the resource".

I think there is where you'll find the difference in support and opposition.

very good point, bgg, but myself being a fellow state employee i can understand how much it pays to play it as safe as possible, sometimes at the expense of the overall health of the deer herd.
imagine this situation, a twra official has two options, either support baiting and on the far chance that an outbreak occurs he gets blamed, noone is going to mention that the herd may be better for this and supp. feeding will become the next year ehd scapegoat.
i also see your point that there is a lot of money being made by the feed companies and their opinions may be biased as well, but youve gotta believe somebody, right?
as for independent "experts" i have found differing opinions, so i am inclined to stay with my position that, "its good for some things, not for others."
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#525755 - 12/12/07 07:43 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
 Originally Posted By: hard county
...seriously, this issue is in my eyes one that cannot have an obvious right answer. if it did then there would not be dozens of whitetail biologists, habitat managers, and agricultural experts who so strongly advocate it.


I would love to see the "difference of opinion" on the baiting/artificial feed issue between those wildlife professionals who "make their money" off baiting/hunting programs and those who are in charge of "what's good for the resource".

I think there is where you'll find the difference in support and opposition.


EXACTLY! When I read "famous" biologists comments about disease transmission and supplemental feeding, or even things like deer farming for monster bucks--when those biologists make their money from those operations--I realize just how much money turns people into fools.
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#525760 - 12/12/07 07:49 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
BSK
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hard hunter,

After talking to geneticists that work with infectious diseases, I've come to realize that the outbreak of a known disease, or worse, a never before seen disease, is an absolute certaintly over time. And the more opportunities for transmission of disease that are provided, the more rapidly it will occur.

People may scoff at that, but when you look at diseases in humans or even deer for that matter, this is not uncommon. CWD is a new disease in deer that has developed in our life-time. The Southeast Cooperative Disease Study Group reported recently on two new diseases they were seeing in deer they could not yet quantify, and those diseases were being found only in areas where baiting was legal.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525794 - 12/12/07 08:21 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Supplemental feeding is definitely one of those risk versus reward debates. But I'll also freely admit there is a huge ethical and philosophical side to the debate as well.

I just finished rereading a speech Dr. Karl Miller gave at the "Shoot from the Hip" segment of last year's Southeast Deer Study Group Meeting that was reprinted in this month's issue of Quality Whitetails magazine. The discussion involved "keeping the fun in hunting." Dr. Miller was musing on "why we hunt" and he made some philosophical points that I totally agree with when it comes to the intensity of the management effort. Here are some excerpts of his talk:

"As managers and hunters engage in making more common what was once rare, we also increase the intensity of the management, and at some point on the management-intensity ladder we begin to artificialize the resource. At some point, the natural world becomes an artifical world, and at some point wildlife management becomes animal husbandry."


Once again, the age-old debate about "how much management is too much management." Obviously, this is an "ethical" question, and every individual will have a different answer for what intensity of management is "stepping over the line." Now by no means am I bashing the pursuit if large-antlered bucks. I do it myself every year and I'm proud as punch when I finally do take a large-antlered buck. My hat is off to those hunters that set their goals high, and accept nothing less. But what worries me is the move towards more and more artificial means of acheiving that goal. Again, I also freely admit that every hunter/manager is going to have a different view on where that ethical line is concerning "too much management." Ethics are unique to each person. But I agree absolutely with Dr. Miller when he said:

"...I view with sadness some current trends in maximizing trophy production at any cost."

"Hunters should be encouraged to become part of the management equation. But this must be constrained to some level of management short of animal husbandry."

Again, everyone is going to have a different view of what is "too much management." But for me, once you start feeding deer out of troughs, they are no longer wild animals; they have become cattle. I have no interest in hunting cows.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#525838 - 12/12/07 08:51 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
kholmes
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How much would the feeders help anyway? I know deer are browsers and eat a number of different foods throughout the year. How much time are they going to spend at a feed station? 20-30 mins? If your land cannot support your deer herd even on a year like this then I think the problem would not be solved by feeding them. I agree with BGG that there is alot of marketing out there promoting products. How much does Cargill or Nutrena really know about deer and their nutrional needs? More than likely they are trying to reach a whole new group of consumers.
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#525984 - 12/12/07 10:43 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: kholmes]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: kholmes
How much would the feeders help anyway? I know deer are browsers and eat a number of different foods throughout the year. How much time are they going to spend at a feed station? 20-30 mins? If your land cannot support your deer herd even on a year like this then I think the problem would not be solved by feeding them. I agree with BGG that there is alot of marketing out there promoting products. How much does Cargill or Nutrena really know about deer and their nutrional needs? More than likely they are trying to reach a whole new group of consumers.


How much feeders help in animal performance is a factor of the quality of the habitat. In the Midwest agricultural belt, feeders would do nothing. In the Florida Everglades, feeders would make a HUGE difference. And that's why you see so much use of supplemental feeding in the Southeast. Hunters/Managers are trying to make up for the poorer-quality habitats/soils common to the area.

Supplemental feeding is used so much in TX due to the near desert conditions. In the very dry years common to the area, there isn't enough rainfall to produce the necessary native food sources to support deer herds and high performance.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#526278 - 12/12/07 02:54 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
WRF
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Here is my two cents. First of all, I will acknowledge that our property may not be the typical property and may not match many of those that you hunt; and therefore, my view is obviously skewed to my own situation.

We have a large property. We have a lot of food plots, natural forage (well, in a normal year), and a few licks. We have used some troughs. 95% of the time they have had soybeans in them. They are empty now, but whether they will be after Jan. 6, I just do not know. My guess is probably not initially.

Here in middle TN on our particular property, I am having a harder and harder time justifying our troughs after reading research and posts by many who obviously know much more than me and provide arguments that seem to be as solid as, if not more so, than those who support the supplemental practices. But I do hear good arguments both ways. Often it depends upon the circumstances and goals. Today, the only thing that presently really concerns me (until perhaps I read the suggested 60 page document) is the aflatoxin.

For me, reasons to continue: trail cameras. For that one goal, the troughs are unbelievably effective. I use to think for added nutrition, but no more (see my reasons to discontinue practice). Licks are effective, too. Plots are good, but often just too big for a camera survey.

Now, one thing to acknowledge, I think that it is safe to bet that most persons doing a true survey of deer using trail cameras are using some form of bait or licks; especially when trying to identify specific deer not just counting. I may be wrong (note that I did not say everyone is doing that so no one get too defensive). Occasional bait here and there, may not be as bad as leaving a feeder or trough in one place, but the problem of spreading a disease I think still could exist. Also, please correct me if I am wrong for I often am that some experts believe that licks can create or foster the same problems as feeders.

Reasons to discontinue: The obvious reasons mentioned in previous posts. The real possibility of spreading diseases. Today that may be very unlikely, but certainly could happen and may some day. Acknowledging that there could be some disease risks even if minimal today, a better argument for me is that I do not know if they provide that much added nutritional benefits. This year may be an exception, but I doubt it. Our property is large. When we have some troughs out, they cover only part of the property. Usually on good years, we have a lot of food plots and natural forage which I think is plenty for our population. It would be my uneducated guess that through food plots and natural forage that our deer get a well balanced diet without us adding anything to it through feeders.

Also responses to two comments from above.

As far as turkeys eating out of troughs, they do. I have many, many pictures of not only deer eating out of our troughs, but also turkeys, coons, skunks, squirrels….

Using natural forage should be much cheaper than supplemental feeding. If you are doing food plots, even just 10% of your land, I seriously doubt that it would be cheaper than supplemental feeding when you consider equipment, fertilizer, lime, seeds, and opportunity cost of ones time. I love the food plotting, but boy is it expensive and extremely time consuming.

All that being said, I am close to leaving what some see as the dark side, but the force is strong. Time will tell. Also, like many of you, I am not the sole person making the decision. I have tremendous influence what occurs, but there are some other opinions that count on various levels and should.


Thanks for that link, BSK.

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#526326 - 12/12/07 03:34 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: WRF]
BSK
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WRF,

GREAT post.

Some positives of supplemental feeding:

In low to moderately productive habitat, supplemental feeding (when done right) WILL improve herd performance, and in some situations, dramatically. This is especially true for those hunters/managers that connot alter the habitat (leasing, etc.). Even many forms of natural habitat enhancement cannot provide the quality of professional produced supplemental feeds.

Long-established feeder sites make excellent photo-census locations in summer.

Supplemental feeds can definitely be easier and in total equipment costs cheaper than large-scale food plotting.


Some negatives:

Serious pontential for disease transmission.

Even though cheaper than large-scale food plotting, a well-designed supplemental feeding program is still very expensive.

Potential to produce over-population problems.

The potential to alter deer utilization of the habitat patterns (over-utilization near the feeders).

Potential to provide foods that really aren't that good for deer (corn in the summer).

Afaltoxin risks with corn.

Creates a very "artificial" management practice (turns management into animal husbandry).

In TN, cannot be continued through the fall months during hunting season. This could do considerable harm to the deer, as they may have become dependent on the food during the other 3/4s of the year.


There are other positives and negatives, but those pop to the top of my head.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#526488 - 12/12/07 05:23 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
hard county
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Registered: 11/26/07
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Supplemental feeding is definitely one of those risk versus reward debates. But I'll also freely admit there is a huge ethical and philosophical side to the debate as well.

I just finished rereading a speech Dr. Karl Miller gave at the "Shoot from the Hip" segment of last year's Southeast Deer Study Group Meeting that was reprinted in this month's issue of Quality Whitetails magazine. The discussion involved "keeping the fun in hunting." Dr. Miller was musing on "why we hunt" and he made some philosophical points that I totally agree with when it comes to the intensity of the management effort. Here are some excerpts of his talk:

"As managers and hunters engage in making more common what was once rare, we also increase the intensity of the management, and at some point on the management-intensity ladder we begin to artificialize the resource. At some point, the natural world becomes an artifical world, and at some point wildlife management becomes animal husbandry."


Once again, the age-old debate about "how much management is too much management." Obviously, this is an "ethical" question, and every individual will have a different answer for what intensity of management is "stepping over the line." Now by no means am I bashing the pursuit if large-antlered bucks. I do it myself every year and I'm proud as punch when I finally do take a large-antlered buck. My hat is off to those hunters that set their goals high, and accept nothing less. But what worries me is the move towards more and more artificial means of acheiving that goal. Again, I also freely admit that every hunter/manager is going to have a different view on where that ethical line is concerning "too much management." Ethics are unique to each person. But I agree absolutely with Dr. Miller when he said:

"...I view with sadness some current trends in maximizing trophy production at any cost."

"Hunters should be encouraged to become part of the management equation. But this must be constrained to some level of management short of animal husbandry."

Again, everyone is going to have a different view of what is "too much management." But for me, once you start feeding deer out of troughs, they are no longer wild animals; they have become cattle. I have no interest in hunting cows.

its all relative isnt it, my dad uses a reurve and doesnt believe in food plots, my brother uses a recurve in bow season but believes in food plots and supplemental feeding. i believe in pretty much everything but crossbows (for non-handicapped) and fences, these are all personal opinions, but in mine using a crossbow is not bowhunting, and fences are to me what troughs are to you.
just my little version of ethics, soybean seed comes in a bag, same as a bag of soybean meal. i dont see why my putting the seed in the dry where it cant rot detrimental.
_________________________
"The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual."
John Muir

"The mountains are calling and I must go."
John Muir

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#526521 - 12/12/07 05:40 PM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: hard county]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Biologically, it is proven that supplemental feeding spreads disease. To deny that is simply burying one's head in the sand.

But when it comes to the "ethics" of supplemental feeding, then that is going to be different for every person.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#527061 - 12/13/07 06:38 AM Re: Making up for the lack of nutrition 2007 [Re: BSK]
Radar
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I plan on fertilizing some native browse this spring .
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