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#503869 - 11/22/07 08:07 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: Mike Belt]
TNTony
Non-Typical


Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 32526
Loc: Ft. Liquordale, FL

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Next to money greed and material things greed, some deer hunters are the greediest somebretches around. Some can't stand to be happy with what somebody else kills or how he legally killed it. We're in the good ole days of hunting now, they'll be memories soon due to greed.
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#508895 - 11/27/07 12:18 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: Radar]
HenryCohunter
4 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Cottage Grove TN/Horn Lake MS

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We own a small 200+ acrea farm in henry county .. about 9 years ago we had a HUGE deer herd but no quality... you might see 20 deer in a day but if you saw a buck he was a basket rack 6 or 8 and you were pleased to see him.The people that own the land next to ours went on a killing spree right after they changed the limits on how many does you could kill to 3 a day.I was told they killed 80 deer that first year and 67 the next.we went for the next 3 years seeing very few deer at all .. we planted some food plots put out minerals for them all year... and managed to keep the deer on our place pretty healthy.Anyway the point of the story is that after the depletion of the deer herd we started seeing bigger deer.After a couple years we started seeing ALOT bigger deer.I talked my brother and the few people that hunted with us into passing on the 2 year old bucks with 15 inch spreads and give them 1 more year... some got killed by the people hunting around us im sure but enough didnt for us to see the difference.We have killed 4 in the last 3 years that have all scored over 140.One BRUTE that my brother killed last year that scored a whopping 159 and weighed close to 240 lbs.It took the almost total anhilation of our deer herd to bring about this change .. that and us being more careful with our herds health but it truly can pay off for you even if you have a small plot of land to mange what you kill.
_________________________
No matter where you go .. there you are.

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#510543 - 11/28/07 08:15 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: fishboy1]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65010
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.


I'll be the first to agree that most hunters become interested in QDM due to their desire to see and kill larger bucks than they have in the past. I did. I was tired of only seeing and killing yearling spikes and forkhorns. However, what I was attempting to produce was far below what most QDM advocates are pushing for these days. My original "dream" was to produce a herd where every hunter had a realistic chance of seeing and killing a 2 1/2+ year-old buck each year. We've accomplished that in spades.

But in addition, after seeing all of the other benefits of a QDM herd--intense rutting activity, massive increase in rubbing and scraping, huge increases in deer body weight, etc.--would I still practice QDM if the local bucks were limited to 100-110 gross? Absolutely! The other benefits really add up.


 Quote:
Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".


I absolutely agree with that, and that's why I keep saying QDM isn't for everybody and should not be enacted into law for everybody by the TWRA. If hunters want to practice QDM in Unit L and A, the current regulations allow them to do so. If they don't want to practice QDM, they don't have to. I like the fact the regulations allow for hunters to choose which type of hunting experience and management they want.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#510553 - 11/28/07 08:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: REN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65010
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BamaBoy N Sumner CO
so i guess my question is how do you get these thoughts to people in the senerios below

1. A guy that only hunts a handful of times a year
2. Public land hunters
3. Small acre owners
4. Youngsters just getting started in hunting.

those are the higher % hunters in TN (i would assume) so those are the people that would need to be reached for it to truely be successfull.


The answer is, you don't. QDM isn't for everyone. QDM would provide little benefit for the "couple of weekends per year" hunter, or the public land hunter. The public land hunter would need to hunt a WMA that is being specifically managed for older/larger bucks to see any benefit.

Now smaller land hunters can see some benefit, but to see a big difference they will need to either own the land or control the habitat (have the ability to modify the habitat).

The new hunter will see benefits IF they are learning to hunt on land that is already being managed.



 Quote:
again i dont think you have to reach out and drill QDM to people but more of common sense hunting if your goal is to upgrade the overall quality of deer on a given piece of property. This also includes the state and how they set up deer regulations each year. If regs are set to not allow you to accomplish the goal then what is the point of having the goal?


It all comes down to "what is possible" in a given area. Currently, the TWRA doesn' believe deer densities are high enough in areas designated Unit B to allow alternative forms of management beyond restoration management. Maybe this is true and maybe it isn't (and I suspect there are pockets of both in Unit B), but currently, Unit B hunters/managers are limited in what they can do.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#511622 - 11/28/07 10:23 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
J_W
4 Point


Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 333
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Fishboy you are right on and are bringing to light an opinion I have had for several years now.

For what it's worth, I almost completely agree with QDM and its principles, just not with many of the so-called participants. As has been brought up in this discussion, there are a great deal of folks on the QDM bandwagon that are in it only for big-racked bucks and don't really care for the good of the wildlife and habitat. This will never really change, and really cannot be managed. What is interesting to me, however, is that many, maybe even a majority, of legit QDM practicioners are in an elite minority in terms of ability to intensively manage their hunting area. For example, look at how many folks on this site own or lease land that solely for hunting on it. This land is not a source of income for them, and in many cases is actually a money pit. Many hunters in this segment are vastly removed from the reality of not just the average Joe hunter but even the middle tier that consists of serious, dedicated hunters without the same control over their hunting area. In my observations, those folks who are able to exercise complete control and practice true QDM on their area are in time doing more deer farming than they are deer hunting. Hunting becomes more about which mix to plant and whose shooting house is more elaborate than interpreting sign in the woods and setting up undetected. Obviously, I am not saying that all QDM guys are like this, just that it seems this becomes more and more the norm every year \:\(

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#511629 - 11/28/07 10:36 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
J_W
4 Point


Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 333
Loc: Winchester, TN

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Forgot to add, my perspective is that of someone who was born and raised on a multi-generational working cattle and row-crop farm with mountain land traditionally relied on for firewood and lumber for farm use. The deer hunter in me wants to leave a field or a few rows of corn and beans uncut and sow the back pasture fields in winter wheat instead of the fescue and dallas grass that is now brown and dead, but the farmer in me knows that feeding the deer even more is not the way to pay the bills \:D
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#511794 - 11/29/07 07:26 AM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: J_W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65010
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: J_W
For what it's worth, I almost completely agree with QDM and its principles, just not with many of the so-called participants. As has been brought up in this discussion, there are a great deal of folks on the QDM bandwagon that are in it only for big-racked bucks and don't really care for the good of the wildlife and habitat. This will never really change, and really cannot be managed.


I agree J_W. Many are on the "QDM bandwagon" due to their desire to kill big antlers. Now I'm not saying the desire to kill big antlered bucks is wrong. We all would like to kill a big antlered buck, and managing specifically for that goal is not wrong. But that is not the primary goal of QDM.



 Quote:
What is interesting to me, however, is that many, maybe even a majority, of legit QDM practicioners are in an elite minority in terms of ability to intensively manage their hunting area. For example, look at how many folks on this site own or lease land that solely for hunting on it. This land is not a source of income for them, and in many cases is actually a money pit. Many hunters in this segment are vastly removed from the reality of not just the average Joe hunter but even the middle tier that consists of serious, dedicated hunters without the same control over their hunting area.


Without question, deep pockets and ownership of your hunting land specifically owned for hunting will produce the best management results, no matter what form of management you are practicing. However, where do you draw the line on who is an "average Joe" hunter? Many hunters join in with other hunters to lease hunting land. None are breaking the bank to do so. Is paying $200-400 to be a part of a QDM lease take a hunter out of the "average Joe" picture? I don't think so. And by your argument about "making a living off the land," considering perhaps 1% of the US population still makes a living off the land, I guess not many people can be a true hunters/managers.


 Quote:
In my observations, those folks who are able to exercise complete control and practice true QDM on their area are in time doing more deer farming than they are deer hunting. Hunting becomes more about which mix to plant and whose shooting house is more elaborate than interpreting sign in the woods and setting up undetected. Obviously, I am not saying that all QDM guys are like this, just that it seems this becomes more and more the norm every year \:\(


I also agree this can be a problem. Too many specialized management practitioners think their results will be completely driven by their management efforts (dollars spent). As I've said many, many times, "growing older bucks is easy, but killing them is not." No matter what management practices you follow and how much you spend, old bucks will never be easy to see and kill. To be regularly successful in harvesting older bucks, it still comes down to hunting skill.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#512267 - 11/29/07 02:57 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5053
Loc: Mississippi

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A couple more points on QDM...

Even those who only get to hunt infrequently can benefit from a QDM program... I'm a prime example. I only get to hunt for a few days in ML, then a few days in gun season. In those few days, I'll typically see 15-25 different bucks, and usually average 2-3 individual bucks per hunt. That's what I enjoy the most. The only downside is that it is difficult to harvest enough does with limited time.

Another point, QDM does not have to be labor intensive or expensive to carry out. My land is approx 60% open and 40% timbered. I've never planted a food plot, nor do I have any need to... I can grow native browse on around 20% of the open ground serving as huge food plots simply by pulling the cattle off those areas, bushhogging in August, then allowing new growth for the deer to feed on all fall/winter. In spring when everything is greening back up, simply rotate the cattle back on to the ground that was rested and reserved for the deer. Works like a charm. It's also fairly easy to drill in clover into many of the designated hayfields, thereby providing additional high protein food sources for the deer.

The improved body weights are probably the most spectacular effect of a QDM program. There's nothing like killing a 200lb deer, especially when compared to the 100 lb yearling bucks.

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#512285 - 11/29/07 03:43 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: megalomaniac]
CPerkins
6 Point


Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 744
Loc: Collierville, TN

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Our lease has changed membership this year apparently and not everyone involved will pass up the bucks that we have tried to pass on in the past. I admitt I was tempted to take a few this year that were below the goal I had made for myself. I let them walk but it didn't feel as positive about it as I have in the past. I have made the point clear that if a buck gets shot it needs to go on the wall. If you shoot one just to cut the horns off and get some meat, they need to shoot a doe. If our new members want to shoot a good 2.5 year old buck and consider that a trophy I will be extremely happy for them when they get their buck. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I won't talk down to someone that shoots a buck I passed on just because it didn't my personal requirements for a "trophy".
_________________________
"I would say my favorite gun is whatever is next to me with the most ammo." Ted Nugent

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#512325 - 11/29/07 05:18 PM Re: Is this the Down side to QDM? [Re: CPerkins]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65010
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Man, you must have a lot of deer megalomaniac! Even in our best years, we only see, on average, 1 buck per 8 hours of hunting time.

But I agree about food plots and the like. And that is my "beef" with the "new" definition of QDM the QDMA has developed. I've practiced and helped others practice QDM very successfully without ever altering anything but the deer that are being killed. No food plots, no habitat management, no nothing except passing up young bucks and shooting enough does to keep the herd density in line with the available habitat.

Now without question, habitat management is an amazingly powerful tool, and will make any QDM program MUCH more successful, but QDM can be accomplished with just a bow, MZ and/or rifle.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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