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#510633 - 11/28/07 09:21 AM QDM?? for BSK or anyone.
MoCamo
Spike


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Tn

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We have been on a program for three years now.Our buck harvest has been low since we started.I expected the harvest to go down but some of our members seem to be getting discuraged.I keep telling them to be patient that it takes time.How long does it nomally take before you really start seeing a differnce? Im thinking 5 yrs but thats just a guess.Our lease is about 2000 acres.
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#510649 - 11/28/07 09:26 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Biologically, it doesn't take long at all to see improvements in buck age structure. However, hunter harvest is a completely different animal. My best advice is to start running as many trail-cameras as you can afford. Often, what hunters see and what is really out there are two completely different things. Nothing encourages discouraged hunters like seeing pictures of older bucks using the property.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#510762 - 11/28/07 10:51 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
MoCamo
Spike


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Tn

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I am satisfied we the why things are going.Ive seen lots of bucks the last 3 years and have not pulled the trigger on the first one.I seen three last year that if could have got shot i would have taken it.To much cover and chasing does makes getting a shot difficult.I am not a great hunter but i do put in alot of time in the woods and just seeing bucks regardless of there size still gets me going.Back in my rattle snake days if had horns of any size he was in serious trouble but since we started practicing QDM i have learned to be more patient and i have learned more about deer and there habits.I may never kill a monster buck but im still happy. Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program? Also i havent shown them any pictures but i did show them a shed i found last spring very nice 4 1/2 bases 20" main beam G1 5 1/2" G2 11 1/2" G3 6 1/4" circumference between G1 and G2 is 4" circumference between G2 and G3 3 1/2" and all they want to know is where i found it.
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#510771 - 11/28/07 10:58 AM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25501
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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hold your ground big ones will show up,just alter hunting strategies some.I dont know if you have food plots,but many people are guilty of sitting over them all the time and you may never see a big buck that way.
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

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#510863 - 11/28/07 12:18 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65620
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: MoCamo
Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program?


Oh YES!

I have never seen a biological QDM failure, but I sure have seen numerous hunter harvest failures, in that they were growing older bucks but couldn't kill them.

Too many hunters belive that they will see and kill whatever is out there. Nothing could be further from the truth. With every year older, bucks get harder to see and kill. Hunters will only see small percentage of the old bucks that exist. Those bucks have learned to be very hunterwise.

In addition, hunters fail to realize that they will seriously have to upgrade their skills once they start setting age limits on the bucks they will kill. Hunting the same type of stand set-ups that regularly got them yearling bucks is not going to cut it for killing older bucks. To be a successful on older bucks, hunters will have to hunt specifically for older bucks. Those stand set-ups often are very, very different than normal stand set-ups and may produce very few deer sightings.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#510950 - 11/28/07 01:33 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19388
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: MoCamo
Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program?


Oh YES!

And YES, YES, YES!!!

 Originally Posted By: BSK
I have never seen a biological QDM failure, but I sure have seen numerous hunter harvest failures, in that they were growing older bucks but couldn't kill them.

Many of the formally best doe and young buck killers have the lowest success rate on older bucks. After 2 or 3 years of their killing no older bucks, some will have their egos bruised, and some will even become highly resentful of the lucky novice and the more successful older buck hunters.

 Originally Posted By: BSK
In addition, hunters fail to realize that they will seriously have to upgrade their skills once they start setting age limits on the bucks they will kill. Hunting the same type of stand set-ups that regularly got them yearling bucks is not going to cut it for killing older bucks.

And many hunters are simply unwilling to do what it takes, then start claiming the QDM program is unsuccessful, that they're tired of passing up all the yearling bucks only for other hunters across the property line to kill them, etc. etc.

But it's amazing how some of even these disenchanted hunters can quickly re-embrace the concepts of QDM if they happen to luck into an older buck or maybe just see one in a picture near where they're hunting.

There is also an ugly side to QDM that is really no fault of QDM, but in fact a character flaw of some hunters. Once some large-antlered older bucks are known to exist, the selfishness and greed of some individual hunters will show it's ugly face. Some of these particular hunters develop the attitude that a particular buck is "his" or a particular hunting area is "his", giving no credit to all his fellow hunters for helping to produce that deer, and only begrudging the individual successes of his fellow hunters. These are the hunters you need to eliminate from your club or hunting group at the earliest opportunity.

Ironically, even though some hunters have a little trouble adapting, most QDM programs produce a higher hunter success rate, on both does and older bucks than non-QDM programs --- meaning that the average hunter in a given group has greater overall hunting success. In exchange for a higher older buck harvest, the trade-off is fewer overall doe sightings and a greatly reduced or eliminated yearling buck harvest. But it seems a fair trade to most who understand it, especially once you learn to hunt for older bucks and start seeing them about as regularly as you once saw yearling bucks.

And when hunting older bucks, "how" you hunt can be more important than "where" you hunt on a given QDM property. One of the biggest mistakes I see being made by novice QDM hunters is their going into an area the day before they hunt to hang a stand, as well as overhunting a very specific spot, not realizing they're shifting deer movement just enough not to see the deer, particularly the older deer (both does and bucks). Of course, often when you try to tell them it's only some small things they need to do differently, they'll argue with success and keep doing it wrong anyway.


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#510955 - 11/28/07 01:38 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Wes Parrish]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27785
Loc: TN

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Having mature bucks, and being able to consistently kill them, is two totally different things that many just dont understand!
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#511158 - 11/28/07 05:25 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Winchester]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4260
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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The most important thing to remember is QDM is not going to produce MONSTERS around every tree. The others have touched on lack of hunting skills for mature bucks,.. i will tell you to not set your goal of monsters everywere. The most important thing you and the others can do , is learn to age bucks by body characteristics and not horns on the head. Keep your buck harvest at QDM guidelines ,. zero 1.5 year olds,.. anything older is fair game. Don't try to use QDM to produce a bunch of 4.5 and older deer, you and the others will be disapointed. PLUS,.. setting that high of goal in a 3 year time frame is crazy. You must keep the goal realistic for hunting reasons,.. but as stated,.. learn to age on the hoof and not by horns. You may be letting a buck that is 4.5 years old walk cause he only sports a 100 inch set of horns. You can't do that in QDM.

On a second note,.. keep buck harvest of 2.5 year olds to minumum if you wish to increase the age structure on the property. Depending on how many members,. you may have to go to a 1, 2.5 year old buck limit to insure bucks are making it into the next age class. This comes from hunting and camera observations. Which is a must in a QDM area.

There is alot to a successful QDM plan,.. and unless you work at it year round and have LOTS of money ,.. it takes longer than 3 years to produce results to the point you say ,. YEP,. its working. Between habitat work, food plot work, camera data, harvest data, herd observations from hunting from each member, etc ,.. it can be a headache. BUT,.. to be succesful,. it takes more than shooting a few does and passing all the bucks. You will not see the results you are searching for like this.

Hope this is not your situation,. but it needed to be addressed if it is.
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#511257 - 11/28/07 06:25 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: Wes Parrish]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10546
Loc: Warren Co

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 Originally Posted By: WesParrish
[quote=BSK][quote=MoCamo]


And when hunting older bucks, "how" you hunt can be more important than "where" you hunt on a given QDM property. One of the biggest mistakes I see being made by novice QDM hunters is their going into an area the day before they hunt to hang a stand, as well as overhunting a very specific spot, not realizing they're shifting deer movement just enough not to see the deer, particularly the older deer (both does and bucks). Of course, often when you try to tell them it's only some small things they need to do differently, they'll argue with success and keep doing it wrong anyway.



Amen to that. I have started moving my stands 50-100yds after 2 hunts and have started seeing mature deer. Thing is, I only see them one time per season from a given stand. No matter how good the spot is, if you hunt it, the big guys will figure you out and avoid the stand. I have adapted my hunting strategy and see 1-2 mature bucks a year, Getting in position to kill one is another situation entirely.


Wes,
What is your opinion regarding lock ons? Say you scout/still hunt and find a great area. You ease out and then come back a week or 2 later and hang a lock on. Have you likely blown out the area for that season? Or do you still have a shot at an old dude if you avoid the area for a couple weeks?
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#511672 - 11/28/07 11:55 PM Re: QDM?? for BSK or anyone. [Re: MoCamo]
bowhunter163
10 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2560
Loc: knoxville,tn

content Online
 Originally Posted By: MoCamo
I am satisfied we the why things are going.Ive seen lots of bucks the last 3 years and have not pulled the trigger on the first one.I seen three last year that if could have got shot i would have taken it.To much cover and chasing does makes getting a shot difficult.I am not a great hunter but i do put in alot of time in the woods and just seeing bucks regardless of there size still gets me going.Back in my rattle snake days if had horns of any size he was in serious trouble but since we started practicing QDM i have learned to be more patient and i have learned more about deer and there habits.I may never kill a monster buck but im still happy. Other people dont feel the same way i do and that puts a strain on what we are trying to accomplish.Is this normal behavior for clubs that are trying to start a managment program? Also i havent shown them any pictures but i did show them a shed i found last spring very nice 4 1/2 bases 20" main beam G1 5 1/2" G2 11 1/2" G3 6 1/4" circumference between G1 and G2 is 4" circumference between G2 and G3 3 1/2" and all they want to know is where i found it.
if they do not want the same results as the rest of the club doesnt sound like they should be on the lease . lol JMO .so now that you have a spot open lol.haha
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